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Old 05-23-2010, 06:36 PM View Post #11 (Link)
Raconteur (Offline)
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Wondering if anyone else thinks poetry and lyrics shouldn't be put together, unless there's two separate subboards or something?
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:47 PM View Post #12 (Link)
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Poetry and Lyrics will have their own queues. They'll be separate.
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:06 PM View Post #13 (Link) Literature Submission
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Today I'll show you how you'll submit literature once the update is done. As you'll see, it's gone through a lot of changes.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2qnnu4h.jpg

First, you choose the title. Nothing new there.

After that, you'll select the Queue - or category. As you can see, this one page will be used for submitting ALL writing. You won't have to go to a particular forum anymore. Next to each option is the number of credits/point you need. If you don't have enough, you won't be able to select it.

Once you choose a queue, you'll be able to choose the Genre. The neat thing is that the Genre menu will change depending on what Queue you choose. If you selected Short Stories, for example, you'll have these Genres:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2v2jiuc.jpg

You can see the current Genre list here. If you can suggest any improvements, please do:

Spoiler:

Short Story,Novel/Novella, Scripts
Action/Adventure
Biography
Children's
Comedy
Crime/Mystery
Fantasy
Historical
Horror
Mainstream
Romance
Science Fiction
Speculative
Other

Poetry
Dramatic (drama as poetry)
Epic (lengthy narrative poem)
Lyric (rhythmic, emotion and thought)
Narrative (tells a story)
Prose (poetry written as prose)
Satirical (insults in verse)
Other

Reports and Essays
Research (lots of cited information)
Informative (tells reader about a topic)
Persuasive (take a side and defend it)
Reflection/Commentary (interpretation)
Critical Analysis (critique of something)
Other

Other/Experimental Writing
Scribbling (trying to get ideas)
Experimental (for writing outside the box)
Other

Art/Photography
Painting
Drawing
Sketch
Computer-Generated
Photography
Other

Music and Lyrics
Blues
Country
Electro
Folk
Hip-Hop
Jazz
Metal
Pop
Punk
R&B
Rap
Rock
Other


Next is the Subgenre. If your submission spans multiple genres, or if you chose "Other", you can specify it here.

Collection: If you have any collections, which were already described, and you want to add your submission to a collection, you can add it here.

Guest Viewing: You can choose if you want guests to be able to view your submission.


Oh, there's more.
http://i50.tinypic.com/9rocw7.jpg

The standard box for typing your submission is there.

There's two more, meant for author notes. If there's something you want people to know before or after reading your stuff, you can mention it in these two boxes. You could include a brief plot summary, or maybe list specific questions you want answered by the critiquer.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:04 PM View Post #14 (Link)
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I just finished the ability to create, edit, and delete submissions, so it's time for an update. Today I'll show you what you'll see if you click a link to someone's writing.

http://i47.tinypic.com/16q7w8.jpg

First, there are three buttons at the top. Obviously, if it's not your submission, you won't see any "Edit" button. And if it IS your submission, you won't see a "Critique" button. So, moderators are the only ones who will see all three.


There are also three tabs. Clicking one will change what you see on the page. The first one shows you the author's writing, and any notes they've written about it. There's also a small box with detailed information about the submission.

The second tab will have a list of all the critiques given so far.

The third tab will have a list of comments. If you recall, comments are meant to be brief, like crit tickets or discussion. They don't earn points.


I'm not sure if the FINAL page will look like the image. I'm particularly not happy with the submission info being stuck in a box on the side, but that stuff needs to go somewhere. If anyone can offer any suggestions, I'm eager to hear them.
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:19 PM View Post #15 (Link)
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This is massive. Be warned.
Spoiler:
Firstly, this is awesome.

Most of these changes are amazing, and you can really see the effort/positive difference. Not to mention the sleek shiny blue edges, that I love. Everything just looks slicker and much cleaner.

The queue feature is a really good one so kudos, but I'm wondering where the "Submit things" button will be? Will it be at the top, just floating generally? And how will co-op come into this? Thread-box even?

Okay, so some of the problems occurs, IMO, regarding genres.

I'm guessing (well you said it, so I'm just repeating ) that if you're story is cross-genre'd then you need to choose an overriding genre, then sub-genre. And what if you select "other"? Do you get to write in your own genre?

What I do like, that I noticed, is the 90 credit points. Is the limit of 30 going to be raised then. I think that's a good thing because some people who crit a lot might be wary to crit when they reach 30 since they won't get anything in return. They'll probably wait until they write something, post it (spend the points) then resume critting which creates a sort of irregular pattern. I know I do that. So I dunno?

Obviously, if you don't plan on raising the limit above 30 then the new points can stay as is (you've made everything less, any particular reason?). The thing I would worry about is the 4 points for Experimental Writing. I think you've given 6 points to the 'big things' that might take up a lot of words. I'd argue that experimental writing may be deserving of 6 points purely because

I don't like the idea of "scribbling ideas" being worth 4 points, and taking a place of its own.

I did sorta mention this in the suggestion thread that really really small things (less than 500 words, ideas, plot bunnies, characters, general planning stuff) should get a thread (section, whatever) without any take/gain of points. Just a place to bounce ideas off without the need of die-hard LBL crits.

So basically a place for things that aren't stories.

Which then kinda makes the "other experimental" genre/section a little bit redundant. There's only two real categories in there ("other", I'm putting under experimental), and if you take away the "scribbling ideas", you could just as easily place "Experimental" under the Short Story section and be done with that.

Spoiler:

On the topic of crit points in general (I'm just gonna spam my suggestions in here).

The problem with really short pieces is that, most of the time, there often isn't that much to say. If I post an idea for a story up for crit, there isn't anything other than "Yes, I'd read this/Interesting idea/Good character" ... and crits themselves can't really be in-depth if there's nothing to crit.

Another thing with having a special section devoted to short-ish work is the fact that more people will be inclined to crit there since it is easier to crit and gain points with shorter pieces. A pattern that I, and many others, have seen is the fact that a lot of very old pieces of writing keep getting critted, and those pieces are usually very short (couple paragraphs) and have a lot of crits in the first place.

I have no idea how the new-gaining-crit-points work though, so maybe this will solve itself.

You also need to sort out the process of critting Art/Photography. Most people post a whole load of photos in the first place (and only spend one single set of points) and then people crit with "This is good blah blah blah" over a cycle, horde the points then post in the short story section.

Maybe decrease the amount of points you get from critting, AND increase the amount of points you need to spend to post stuff?


Nothing wrong with the story genre place, although I wonder if anyone writes Biographies? You also might need to clarify some of those sections. Does Children's encompass YA/Teen or not? Another thing is that I'm miffed that there isn't a Literary genre. But that's more personal preference. I'd argue there is a difference between Literary/Mainstream, but that's for another thread.

One of the biggest concerns is the poetry genres.

I have no idea what half of them mean. And they look the same to the ones on YWS, and that was one of the reasons why I didn't like the poetry section over there. I mean if you want to have them then you need definitions. Define "epic"? Dante Epic? I wouldn't even know where to begin with Satirical... or how to write that. Prosetry seems very close to Experimental. And the differences between Dramatic, Narrative, Lyric confuses me. Especially since every poem 'should' be a story that gets across an emotion.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but further clarification may be needed otherwise I just wouldn't know where to post my poetry. What might be an *interesting* idea is theme-based genres? Meh. Midnight thoughts aren't much good. EDIT: Theme-based genres is a HORRIBLE idea. Ignore me.

For the art/photography, I might be tempted to put Sketch into Drawing, and add the sub-genre of Multi-Media. That could open the door to films/animation and whatnot.

What I do like is the fact that you can post before/after comments. Saw that on Critique Circle and loved it. It would allow a much more focused crit, not just dealing with grammar and so on, which would be good.

I, again, quite like the idea of "Critique/Comments/Story" being separate. And I agree that the little box is a bit obtrusive. My first thoughts is that it could *hover* whenever you moved your mouse over the title, if that's even possible? If "hovering" is an option, perhaps add a little line as a synopsis, or something to tell what the story will be about (like a hook) before you actually click/read it. Other than that, fantastic job!

NOTE: Will you be changing the groups much?


That probably makes no sense.

I'm pooped, and I've written too much. And I have a chemistry exam I'll fail tomorrow. FML.
  
						Last edited by Spacepirate; 06-01-2010 at 10:23 PM.
					
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:17 PM View Post #16 (Link)
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Just note that a lot of what you're seeing so far isn't finished, and Shaun and I still have some details to discuss. All the following is my own current opinion, but any of it can be changed if members feel strongly about something.

The queue feature is a really good one so kudos, but I'm wondering where the "Submit things" button will be? Will it be at the top, just floating generally? And how will co-op come into this? Thread-box even?
It'll probably be 1) At the top of each queue page, and 2) As a link in the Writing drop-down menu at the top.

And how will co-op come into this?
Co-op is completely different from the rest of the literature. It does not use points, does not require critiques, and involves many authors. So, I will probably move it to the main page, with the other writing forums there. It is better suited as a forum.


I'm guessing (well you said it, so I'm just repeating ) that if you're story is cross-genre'd then you need to choose an overriding genre, then sub-genre. And what if you select "other"? Do you get to write in your own genre?
A genre is always required, even if you just choose "Other". Subgenre is always optional. You can leave it empty or not.

What I do like, that I noticed, is the 90 credit points. Is the limit of 30 going to be raised then. I think that's a good thing because some people who crit a lot might be wary to crit when they reach 30 since they won't get anything in return. They'll probably wait until they write something, post it (spend the points) then resume critting which creates a sort of irregular pattern. I know I do that. So I dunno?
Ahahahaha. I just set mine to 90 so I can repeatedly submit things (while paying points) for testing purposes.

This is one thing Shaun still need to discuss. I approve of removing the points cap. My main concern, though, is keeping a balance between submissions and critiques. What I do NOT want to happen is for someone to, say, do 2 critiques and 1 submission for an extended period of time, and then accumulate so many points that they can submit their writing without the need to do any critiques for months. If something like this were to happen with all the long-term members, then the newer members would not be getting as many crits as when the older members were racking up points. It's an imbalance.

I've been on other writing sites with point systems, and they take measures to ensure the points don't get too imbalanced. One of them essentially doubles the cost of submitting something if you already submitted something in the past month, and triples it if you submit a third, etc. Another resets the points at the end of every month.

What I am proposing is this: People can accumulate as many points as they want. But at the end of every month, everyone with more than XX points (say, 100), will have their points reset to 100. They'll still be able to submit their writing for the foreseeable future, but there won't be a huge imbalance. In addition, I want to have some sort of contest, where the people who had the most points before being reset get some sort of status and privileges, like Members of the Month.

Again, of all the changes, this one probably deserves the most discussion. Nothing is set in stone, and I will be asking for member input as well.

I don't like the idea of "scribbling ideas" being worth 4 points, and taking a place of its own.

I did sorta mention this in the suggestion thread that really really small things (less than 500 words, ideas, plot bunnies, characters, general planning stuff) should get a thread (section, whatever) without any take/gain of points. Just a place to bounce ideas off without the need of die-hard LBL crits.
Sounds fair. We could make a new forum for just bouncing ideas around - stuff that really isn't ready to stand up to rigorous critiques.

Which then kinda makes the "other experimental" genre/section a little bit redundant. There's only two real categories in there ("other", I'm putting under experimental), and if you take away the "scribbling ideas", you could just as easily place "Experimental" under the Short Story section and be done with that.
Okay, so "scribbling" could be taken out. Then I could subdivide it and make some new genres. Even strange writing has different kinds.

Experimental writing isn't necessarily a story. It could be a list, for example. A list doesn't fit in any of the other categories. Experimental deserves its own section.

Maybe decrease the amount of points you get from critting, AND increase the amount of points you need to spend to post stuff?
It will be at least a 2-to-1 ratio of crits-to-submissions, for any section. This assumes the critique is of a resaonable length. Very short ones (less than 100 words) will earn no points.

You also need to sort out the process of critting Art/Photography. Most people post a whole load of photos in the first place (and only spend one single set of points) and then people crit with "This is good blah blah blah" over a cycle, horde the points then post in the short story section.
Shaun and I have also been discussing photography/art, possibly making it a less-serious section, with comparatively less points required/earned and shorter critiques expected.

Nothing wrong with the story genre place, although I wonder if anyone writes Biographies? You also might need to clarify some of those sections. Does Children's encompass YA/Teen or not? Another thing is that I'm miffed that there isn't a Literary genre. But that's more personal preference. I'd argue there is a difference between Literary/Mainstream, but that's for another thread.
Sounds reasonable. What do you mean by "literary" though?

I have no idea what half of them mean. And they look the same to the ones on YWS, and that was one of the reasons why I didn't like the poetry section over there. I mean if you want to have them then you need definitions. Define "epic"? Dante Epic? I wouldn't even know where to begin with Satirical... or how to write that. Prosetry seems very close to Experimental. And the differences between Dramatic, Narrative, Lyric confuses me. Especially since every poem 'should' be a story that gets across an emotion.
The menus for poetry have brief descriptions. I don't recall if I said so earlier.

http://i50.tinypic.com/15q7lex.jpg

Again, poetry isn't my strong point, so if you can suggest some more appropriate genres, please do.


For the art/photography, I might be tempted to put Sketch into Drawing, and add the sub-genre of Multi-Media. That could open the door to films/animation and whatnot.
Okay.


What I do like is the fact that you can post before/after comments. Saw that on Critique Circle and loved it. It would allow a much more focused crit, not just dealing with grammar and so on, which would be good.

I, again, quite like the idea of "Critique/Comments/Story" being separate. And I agree that the little box is a bit obtrusive. My first thoughts is that it could *hover* whenever you moved your mouse over the title, if that's even possible? If "hovering" is an option, perhaps add a little line as a synopsis, or something to tell what the story will be about (like a hook) before you actually click/read it. Other than that, fantastic job!
Yeah, hovering is an option, but the link to the collection needs to be able to be clicked. I'll still play with other ideas though. Compared to the rest of the changes, this one is extremely easy to change.

Thanks for all your input. Very appreciated, lots of good ideas. I'd love to see other members' input too. *wink wink wink wink*
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:30 AM View Post #17 (Link)
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Just a little splurge, which I was musing over.

I saw the description of the poetry genres but even still, I'm not too convinced, It might be better if you split it into genres of "Form", "Free Verse", "Nonsense", "Prosetry", "Comedic", "Epic" and "Other" instead? That might be easier, and make a little bit more sense for everyone. Possibly...

And to the hovering option, you could just turn the "View Collection" into a section of its own next to View/Critiques/Comments/Collection?

http://i47.tinypic.com/16q7w8.jpg So like another white clicky-boxy thingymajig.

---

Anoooooother cute little thing to have could be like a Remainder thing, for posts/crit tickets. I was thinking a little icon at the top of the View section and if you clicked on it you could set it to remind you to "crit the piece" in how many days or so. How viable would that be? Maybe I should stop with the ideas XD

Meh. Other people's thoughts would be great *I iz alzo winkingz*
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:32 PM View Post #18 (Link)
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(I don't want to post here after Spacey's suggestions. Mine looks so small and useless. xD)

Maybe the little box (submissions info, that's what you're talking about, right?) could go next to the "edit/critique/comment" buttons. http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...uresection.png There's a big white space otherwise, and maybe putting the box there would make it seem less detached? On the other hand, then you would end up with empty space where the submissions info is now.

And a quick question. The title of the example piece is "Verture -- A Poem." Is that just what you used to test it out, or will all sumbissions have "a novel" or "a poem" etc. after them?

I do like the reminder suggestion, if that's possible. And this entire update is looking really good.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:40 PM View Post #19 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Spacepirate View Post
Anoooooother cute little thing to have could be like a Remainder thing, for posts/crit tickets. I was thinking a little icon at the top of the View section and if you clicked on it you could set it to remind you to "crit the piece" in how many days or so. How viable would that be? Maybe I should stop with the ideas XD

Meh. Other people's thoughts would be great *I iz alzo winkingz*
The crit reminder can be done later. It's not essential, and anything that requires storing information (like that) will take some time to do. I've got a list of neat things to add once this update is done. They're not critical, but like your suggestion, can be convenient.

Originally Posted by Majyk View Post
(Maybe the little box (submissions info, that's what you're talking about, right?) could go next to the "edit/critique/comment" buttons. http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...uresection.png There's a big white space otherwise, and maybe putting the box there would make it seem less detached? On the other hand, then you would end up with empty space where the submissions info is now. good.
That's a good idea. And there wouldn't be any empty space there. That box is the only thing making it so high.


Originally Posted by Majyk View Post
And a quick question. The title of the example piece is "Verture -- A Poem." Is that just what you used to test it out, or will all sumbissions have "a novel" or "a poem" etc. after them?
Definitely not. That was just part of the title, for testing.
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Old 06-04-2010, 02:56 AM View Post #20 (Link)
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One of the new additions to the literature update is the way writing is displayed. The current forum software is not suited for writing due to the way it stores text. As you're probably aware, it can be confusing due to the way it does not separate paragraphs. This update will fix that.

Depending on what type of writing you submit, it will be displayed differently. Since structure is so important for poetry, poems will pretty much be unchanged. All spaces between lines will be preserved, whether it's one or three.

http://i50.tinypic.com/33nx6k5.jpg

Essays and stories work differently. Paragraphs should be indented, and the space between paragraphs should be consistent. Whether you put a blank line between paragraphs or not, extra spacing will be removed, like so:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2a7aqs3.jpg

Lastly, scripts. The space between stage directions and dialogue is consistent, and reverse-indented.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2zzojfc.jpg
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