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Old 01-13-2014, 05:34 PM View Post #1 (Link) There are more than one type of critique
Novalis14 (Offline)
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I have only been a member for a couple weeks but I have noticed that everyone focuses more on grammar and such and very little on story content. also when I made critiques about story content I was told that they didn't follow the guide lines and were deleted. I later checked the guidelines and I had followed what it said.

So my suggestion is that you make a separate place for story content critiques.

Okay mostly this is a complaint but I have no clue where to put it. Which Is another thing, for "Young" writers you don't seem to realize that spreading your rules and such all over the place lessens the readers tolerance for reading them.
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Old 01-13-2014, 05:52 PM View Post #2 (Link)
Dabs (Offline)
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Creating a separate forum for critiquing story content would be convoluted and confusing, and would likely require you to post a story twice, which would make the point-system confusing, too. It's fine the way it is. You can't choose what people focus on. If they think grammar and spelling are the biggest issues of a piece, let them tackle that. They're important.

Infinity_Man already explained why your threads were closed. If you have an issue with it, take it up with him, preferably, or another mod (anyone with a green name, like me). Posting several critiques within fifteen minutes of each other does not show that you really put a lot of effort into them, that and the fact that the ones deleted were not very substantial. If you genuinely don't have a lot to say about a piece, just PM the author or move on to something else.

Try doing a line-by-line critique instead so your advice and criticism can be tied to something more concrete, you can take more time doing it, and hopefully end up with something more thoughtful.

I don't think having two separate links for site rules and critique guidelines is very difficult to manage. That said, I think that's something that can be addressed. I was't a member when the site was made, so I don't know why those are in two different sections when they could probably be in one (though I'm sure the admins have their reasons). I can bring this up for discussion with the other mods.
  
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Old 01-13-2014, 06:50 PM View Post #3 (Link)
Infinity_Man (Offline)
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I did not delete your critiques because they focused on story content.I deleted your critiques for the reason I told you.

They only covered one or, at best, two points that were generally vague. Also because the three critiques I deleted were posted at 2:22, 2:43, and 2:57. Keeping in mind that you also posted a story at 2:34, this means you only gave, at best, nine minutes to the second critique, and 14 minutes to the second. Granted, it's possible you read them beforehand and wrote up your critique and posted them in short times. But the quality of your responses led me to believe you were giving quick comments to gain points to post your own writing, instead of reading the pieces closely and giving the author useful advice. Like I said to you before, it should take you longer than nine minutes to read and critique a story, and the quality of the critique reflected that.

Let's consult the critique guidelines you say you followed. The first four points the guideline makes are:
1. Critiques are supposed to help the author
2. Tell the author why
3. Compliments are good
4. Be polite.

I think I've covered that your critiques didn't fulfill the first clause. While you covered in some critiques why the author should work on something, I found you generally made comments without elaborating, such as:

"You had some good phrasing but as a reader I couldn't think anything but "Huh?"."
You don't elaborate on this point, don't explain why all you could think was "huh" and so it doesn't help the author. So you don't meet point two of the guideline.

You generally were complimentary when you needed to be, so you got point 3, but at the same time compliments should come with a "why" as in why you liked a piece.

And I found at times you weren't polite to the author. You made comments such as:

Um.... I have no clue what I just read....
Snark can be tolerated, as long as it has purpose, as long as you're helpful with it. Just saying "I have no clue what I just read" isn't good enough because you never offer specific or helpful criticism about why you thought that. In fact, the only valid criticism you made in that critique was:

Okay so first off you might want to work on what the setting is cause i was totally lost.
That's it. Notice how you said "first off"? Thus signalling that even you recognized that was the first valid comment you gave? There's also only two more paragraphs in that critique: one where you comment that the piece was short (you don't actually make it clear whether this is criticism or not) and one where you tell the writer not to get discouraged.

So, no, I did not think you adhered to the critique guidelines, and that is why I deleted your comment. The same applies to the others that I deleted. Because I had to delete multiple critiques of yours, I closed your story. I also told you that if you posted stronger critiques (and, you'll notice, I haven't deleted anything of yours since) then you could contact me and I would re-open your story.

Like Dabs said, if you have any concerns or contentions over a moderator's action, take it to a moderator through Visitor Message or Private Message. It doesn't have to be me, if you feel like I would be biased. There are many active moderators on the forum. Please do not passive-aggressively voice your concern in such a public way, because I have no problem directly confronting you in turn.

Which Is another thing, for "Young" writers you don't seem to realize that spreading your rules and such all over the place lessens the readers tolerance for reading them.
I don't really understand what the first part means, or if you're distancing yourself from the identity of a "young" writer, so I'll ignore that. I don't think we spread the rules all over the place. We ask you to read them when you join the site so that you don't break the rules. It's pretty simple. Everywhere asks you to read their rules and guidelines. I posted the rules in my closure of your thread because it seemed, to me, that you hadn't read them yet. I'm sorry if you feel fatigued by the rules, but when you start following them we'll stop bringing them up.
EDIT: My apologies, I misunderstood what you were saying here. You are, perhaps, correct that the rules should all be in one place, and that it is maybe tricky to navigate the forum to find them, though I think there is use in being able to direct someone towards the rules instead of the critique guidelines, and vice versa. Again, I apologize for misinterpreting that line.

Now, to the matter at hand...

I think you're making a mistake in believing that "narrative" and "technique" are two separate entities. Your ultimate goal, when telling a story, should be clarity. If the reader can't understand what you're trying to say, then it doesn't matter what you're trying to say at all. Like I said in my critique, you could have a really interesting plot with fantastic characters, but since your grammar and punctuation were absolutely dreadful I couldn't get through your story to see if that was true or not.

It's not the reader's responsibility to enjoy your story, it's your responsibility to write something worth enjoying. You can't please everyone, no, but when two people both tell you that you really need to work on your technical aspects, then maybe you should focus on your technical aspects, instead of ignoring that advice or complaining about it.

What I'm trying to say is no there shouldn't be a separate place for story content critiques, because you can't just separate the two. If you don't have good grammar, then you don't have a good story. If you don't have an interesting story, then it doesn't matter how good your grammar is. They have to work together. Granted, you can ask for specific comments on narrative elements, and both MonaLon and I gave you comments on your story, but our points were that your poor grammar was getting in the way too much. The fact that you'd rather completely change the system rather than acknowledge that, yes, maybe you have grammar issues, tells me you're not taking your writing seriously enough.

I'd also like to point out that if you look at other critiques on the forum, there are plenty of comments on story elements. It's not like the whole forum is adamant about only grammar and nothing else. You're actually one of the first people in a long time that I've had to focus solely on your technical aspects. So don't exaggerate two critiques validly commenting on grammar on your own work to make erroneous comments such as "everyone focuses more on grammar and such and very little on story content" because then you're just slandering the forum.

I hope, when you write more stories, you'll think about what I and Mona said in our critiques and realize that, yes, grammar is important.

EDIT: May I suggest you read some of the guides that are listed in my signature? Perhaps "How to TAKE a critique" and "8 Ways to NOT Make It as a Writer?"
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						Last edited by Infinity_Man; 01-13-2014 at 07:17 PM.
					
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:14 PM View Post #4 (Link)
Spiders (Offline)
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You see, this is why I don't put my work here for critique or critique other people's work here.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:36 PM View Post #5 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Spiders View Post
You see, this is why I don't put my work here for critique or critique other people's work here.
What part?
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:29 PM View Post #6 (Link)
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On this subject: I'm assuming new and old members are aware of the guides and what not for critiques? It might help to look at those for examples. I'm not privy to the particulars of this case, so I can't comment on any of it, but it's still good to look at the guides.

That said, if you feel like your work isn't being critiqued properly, tell a mod. You should receive attention to writing on the level of the text *and* on the level of the story (unless, of course, the text itself is difficult to read, making the story the least important part to address at that point).
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:40 PM View Post #7 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Spiders View Post
You see, this is why I don't put my work here for critique or critique other people's work here.
Why is this?
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:11 AM View Post #8 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Demon Hunter View Post
Originally Posted by Spiders View Post
You see, this is why I don't put my work here for critique or critique other people's work here.
Why is this?
More to the point: why are you here? critiquing is the basis of the site, yes, or have I wandered someplace new?
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:27 AM View Post #9 (Link)
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Easy lalo. Let Spiders explain. No need to poke
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:39 AM View Post #10 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
Easy lalo. Let Spiders explain. No need to poke
oops, that did sound angrier than planned.
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