WW2 and America

[Maroon-Back 313]

Okay, first off...Hello everyone! I've been gone for a while. And I've been so busy. It doesn't look like I'll be free anytime soon though, so this thread doesn't mean I'm coming back. Sorry ): HOWEVER, I have been doing a lot of learning in the time I've been gone and that is what has spawned this thought in my little ol' head.

World War 2 !! ^.^

For those of you don't know specific details about the second Great War (1939-1945), the infamous Chancellor (later, Dictator) Adolf Hitler invaded Poland in 1939, the final action in a series of agressive German movements that sparked the war. Now, America and the rest of the western European nations in the Allies fought a war against Germany, the USSR (today's Russia and several smaller eastern European nations) and the rest communist Europe.

In 1941, the war in the Pacific started when Japan launched its attack on an American naval base in Hawaii, Pearl Harbor. Back and forth, America and Japan fought, with the war going more or less in America's favor. In 1945, after asking for Japan to surrender (met by a stubborn refusal), the U.S. dropped two atomic bombs on the island nation. Two major cities, Nagasaki and Hiroshima, were hit and the total death count is estimated around 225,000 (and that is a rather conservative count). The amount of damage and mass destruction caused will never be calculable, and the few survivors are forever changed.

Defense for this atrocity?

The president made the decision to drop the bombs with the intent to save American lives and force a surrender from Japan. He succeeded. He estimated a massive casualty rate in American ranks if he risked an invasion of Japan.

General opinion?

Well most people are disgusted. Especially after watching the documentary White Light, Black Rain, most people (Americans too) are in shock the U.S. could dream of dropping such a horrid weapon on any nation.

My Opinion?

Well, there is no doubt that the nuclear bombs are a tad over powered. It's wrong to use them, and their effects are devastating, especially considering the fact the weapon was used on civilians. However, I can't say the decision was unprovoked.

Hear me out.

Japan was being extremely agressive without provocation, as a result of an Imperialist movement. The U.S. made several attempts to make peace with the nation, (mostly by trying to force a surrender, and asking for Japan to pay reparations, like Germany had to after WW1) to which Japan responded with more violence despite increasing losses. Let's not forget the slaughter of Nan-King (a.k.a Nan-Ching). Nan-King was a small Chinese town invaded by Japanese soldiers, who the proceeded to slaughter the civilians, rape the women (and little girls), and set fire to their homes.

The generally accepted death toll is 300,000, though I'm willing to believe the count was a bit lower. Some Japanese revisionists claim the entire event was fabricated, but I believe you can visit a mass burial site in or around Nan-King today. Also, pictures have been taken on site, of Japanese soldiers smiling next to decapitiated heads, and dead youths. Maybe it was all fake, but I believe it.

Now, back to the topic. Before the bombs were dropped, tests had been run, but the true power of the nukes had yet to be revealed. In truth, no one had any idea the extent of the damage it would cost, but it was a risk the U.S. was willing to take. The president estimated he'd save a quarter million American soldiers if he could force a surrender with the bombs. This is approximately the amount of civilians killed.

Now, maybe this is a little cold for me to agree to this way of thinking, but...

What's more important to the president? Saving American lives, or sparing enemy lives? True they were civilians, but in the lens of practicality, he basically traded Japanese lives for American ones. In his view, as leader of the American people, American lives were by far more valuable than any other nation's people, particularly an enemy who had no other ambition than to expand its borders at other nations' expense!

Furthermore, I think that if we knew how much damage we'd do, the bombs wouldn't have been dropped, despite the point I made just now. Dropping a bomb now, in the same circumstance would be wrong, because we made the mistake once, and we know exactly how wrong this is. However, back when the mistake was made, it was justifiable and understandable.

Your opinion?

(You fill this in)

NOTE: I AM SORRY, BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE IN SECRET ORGANIZATIONS AND OTHER SUCH NONSENSE. I WOULD PREFER TO NOT SEE MENTION OF ILLUMINATI OR FREEMASONRY OR WHAT HAVE YOU, SINCE THIS IS A SERIOUS TOPIC THAT I HAVE THOUGHT LONG AND HARD ABOUT. PLEASE DO NOT POLLUTE THIS THREAD WITH NONSENSE. THANK YOU. ALSO, I REALIZE MY OPINION GOES AGAINST THE NORM, AND FOR THAT I APOLOGIZE, BUT IT'S WHAT I FEEL. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM NAME CALLING OR DOWNING SOMEONE'S OPINION, AS IT IS JUST AN OPINION AND WE CAN ALL BELIEVE WHATEVER WE LIKE. AND PLEASE TRY TO SUPPORT THE OPINION YOU GIVE WITH A VALID POINT. SIMPLY SAYING "THE US WAS WRONG" ISN'T CONVINCING ANYONE.

[Infinity_Man]

First of all, you made it sound like the Americans fought against Russia. I don't believe this is true, as Russia essentially saved the day and won the war in Europe (depending on how you look at it). It was only after that Russia and America started really becoming enemies.

But basically... That war really didn't make anyone look good. Certainly not the Germans; France's feet fell from under them in the blink of an eye; Britain stalled far too long; Russia saved the day by creating a path of pillage and rape straight into Germany; Japan guaranteed the participation of an opponent that would pretty much overwhelm Hitler with foes when he was already stuck between the Red Army and the British advance; and just about everyone, before all of it started, can be found to saying that Hitler was a pretty cool guy. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are kind of America's shining moment in the black pit that is World War 2.

Was it justifiable? It's hard to say. Certainly there would have been death on all sides had the Americans invaded on foot, but a quarter of a million deaths? And all civilians? It's hard to say. But I think you're right when you bring up your point of priorities--I think it's hard to expect an American General who's probably spent most of his life thinking of the Japanese in very xenophobic ways, and has probably known nothing but war and Depression all his life to suddenly become that movie-style hero who believes in everyone gettin' out alive and using your words to hurt people; so I'm not surprised they went with the option that saved more American lives than Japanese lives. Does that make it better? No, but it makes it understandable, I think.

I think it's also important to remember that this is the only time Nuclear bombs have been used in warfare. Considering that the next twenty years saw an event who's culmination would have been seeing ALL the nuclear bombs ever built used, I think it's clear that this event taught the world something. It's not like afterwards the Americans looked at each other and said "Bitchin'". Instead they, and various other powers, learned to fear the bomb, and what their enemies might do with it, and stockpiled. Since then, Nuclear bombs being used has only happened in crappy action movies. I think you could see this as learning from their mistakes.

So while I don't think mass death is ever a good thing, I don't think anyone who ever says something along the lines of "they should have all just been friends" understands anything about war, racism, how much is actually expected of the reparation cost, etc. etc.

[lostbookworm]

You want to know my honest to god opinion?

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/011/131/Nobody-cares-baby..._large.jpg

Atom Bombs = Bad
Killing People = Bad
Saving People = Good
An Atrocity That Occurred Over Sixty Years Ago = Can We Deal With The Atrocity's Occurring Right Now?

Please?

[Jack]

In all fairness this is the first debate topic for ages that actually involves facts and, y'know, using your fucking brain. Carry on.

[ScottyMcGee]

Wasn't there some rumor (I don't know if this is true or not) that the Japs actually were ready to surrender but we, being good old America, were like, "SSSHH! SHUT UP! YOU HATE US AND WE'RE GOING TO BLOW YOU UP!" All to show everyone our glorious power of the bomb?

I don't think they should have done that. And I know lots of people say things like, "Well, in war there are hard decisions and some people have to make those hard decisions for peace and rawr rawr rawr dicks dicks dicks."


No.


I believe there's always another way.


They could have Solid Snake'd that shit.

[Infinity_Man]

They could have Solid Snake'd that shit.

This reference is meaningless to me, because as soon as I got the line gun I went in and blew up every single person I could find :P

[Maroon-Back 313]

Well sorry lostbookworm, if bringing up a debate topic that I've been thinking about upsets you or something, but there's no need to broadcast you have no interest in the thread, on the thread. It's unnecessarily critical and makes you look unpleasant. And if you want people to focus on the now, by all means post your own debate topic.

ScottieMcGee, you referenced metal gear solid, I love you

Jack, thanks for your defense.

Infinity Man, thanks for contributing the most to this thread so far. I agree with what you were saying, it wasn't right, but it can be explained.

[Bowie20049]

Wasn't there some rumor (I don't know if this is true or not) that the Japs actually were ready to surrender but we, being good old America, were like, "SSSHH! SHUT UP! YOU HATE US AND WE'RE GOING TO BLOW YOU UP!" All to show everyone our glorious power of the bomb?

I don't think they should have done that. And I know lots of people say things like, "Well, in war there are hard decisions and some people have to make those hard decisions for peace and rawr rawr rawr dicks dicks dicks."


No.


I believe there's always another way.


They could have Solid Snake'd that shit.

Using Barefoot Gen as my (albeit probably unreliable) source, many of the Japanese wanted to surrender. They had to live with constant fear of getting bombed by the planes above. It's just that the one who was able to surrender didn't surrender.