Ethics and Dissection

[Pibs]

What is your opinion on animals being raised and killed for the sole purpose of dissection by high schoolers? Is it necessary for education? Is it cruel and inhumane? Is it both? Did you ever refuse to dissect an animal in Biology class?

I'll say what I think once stuff gets going... :)

[Imelda]

I have no problem with dissection, but at a high school level, it's ridiculous. There's nothing you learn that can't be learnt from a diagram, or maybe watching a teacher dissect a single animal.

As for me, well we don't really do dissection here. :p I was supposed to do a sheep's eyeball in A level Bio, but the teacher never got around to it. And when the GCSE teacher was supposed to be dissecting a lung, there was a lung shortage, so we didn't get that either.

I have dissected many onions, though. And the occasional bean plant. I still feel guilty about that.

[Shaun]

In principle I have a problem with animals being raised just to be killed an dissected...unless we're going to eat them. My question is, with all our technology, why can't we just have a lab grown frog that never achieves consciousness? Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

I've dissected a frog (twice), an a really really big worm (some sort of super earthworm or something). I never really wanted to though, but I did it and I don't feel guilty because I didn't kill it. But they didn't really tell us where they came from at that time...we just assumed they were dead to begin with...when I was that age it was possible to have lab grown animals that never woke up :P

[Rafael Domination]

In principle I have a problem with animals being raised just to be killed an dissected...unless we're going to eat them. My question is, with all our technology, why can't we just have a lab grown frog that never achieves consciousness? Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

I've dissected a frog (twice), an a really really big worm (some sort of super earthworm or something). I never really wanted to though, but I did it and I don't feel guilty because I didn't kill it. But they didn't really tell us where they came from at that time...we just assumed they were dead to begin with...when I was that age it was possible to have lab grown animals that never woke up :P


*Big sigh of relief*

Finally. We're on the same grounds. The same thing goes with me. I don't feel guilty or anything if I dissect something, but that doesn't mean I'm first in line to do so. If it's an optional project, I usually opt out. If it's for marks and I HAVE to do it, I don't put up a fight either. They're there already, so I might as well not have those animals wasted and have them put to good use.

But yeah, if we could grow animals like vegetables, why not?

[Imelda]

You can't grow animals like vegetables--even if they're asleep, they're still alive and have animal-feelings and stuff. It's a pretty absurd statement to make 'oh, well it's ok to kill things as long as they've never been awake'. Let's all kill kittens and puppies that wake up blind, shall we?

[Rafael Domination]

Actually, if the bodies are just grown, without the nervous system ever firing up, or conciousness being achieved, just forming a lump of flesh into the appropriate structures and cells, it'll be no better than molding play-dough.

But yeah, I see the impossibility of the matter.

[Lykaios]

We're not allowed to do dissetceion on live animals in high school in England. But my class has done pigs hearts and lungs which the teacher apparantly got from the butchers. Me, I hate blood and all that and I don't like the idea of cutting something open, alive or dead. So I refuse to join in and leave the class to do book work. I have a friend who has been vegatarian all his life and he can't stand that people can do dissetcion.

[Pibs]

Okay, sounds like we're all kinda on similar ground here.

So, I'm in high school. I've been assigned to do earthworm, frog, and sheep eye dissections. That's how I thought of bringing this up.

I think that, for the most part, dissection is kind of unnecessary in high schools, since the majority of the students probably won't use that information later in life. While I'm not cheering about the opportunity to cut something that was once alive up, I'm okay with ME doing it, even if that's vain or hypocritical or whatever, because I'm likely going to use that information. I want to be a biologist, or a vet, or something along those lines.

Dissection in college is, I guess, a necessary evil. While, again, I'm not looking forward to cutting up dead animals, at that point the students doing it (aka me) will be using that knowledge to help lots of other animals. I guess it evens out the bad karma a bit.

About high school dissections; what if they made it optional? The kids who weren't really interested in science could use a dissect-the-virtual-frog computer program or something, and if there were any students that were seriously interested in pursuing a career in science, the teacher could suggest to them that they do a special actual dissection class. That way everybody learns, but less lives are taken. Yah?

[Crocolyle]

I personally think it's vital and necessary for education. Though it may not be directly useful for high school students, but it is human nature to take things apart to see how things work. I personally did not enjoy dissecting the sheep heart, frog, earthworm, or the raw chicken wing I dissected in my high school biology and anatomy classes, but I think it is a hands on approach that lets you actually see what how the organs fit together and how the systems function as a whole. Sure, you can learn a lot from a diagram or reading about the organs, but I don't see anything wrong with dissection.

While I do not think animals should be put into unnecessary agony and while ecosystems and endangered species should be protected, animals have many uses--as food, as learning aids, as well as a method for testing drugs and medicine.

[Shaun]

Here's the solution to all the issues with this:

Have students dissect dead chickens that have recently been slaughtered. Then afterwards, have them cook the chicken however they like (cooked right, I mean like in a pasta, salad, or whatever). That way the students get to dissect it and it doesn't go to waste. The animal wasn't killed just to be poked at, and instead goes to good use.

I agree to a certain extent with Croc. I think it is important that kids learn this part of biology. I don't know if it is absolutely necessary for them to have a hands on approach. Certainly in higher-level biology courses (like Honors or AP courses or whatever are advanced courses in your school system). I do think it's important, though.

To Pibs idea about making it optional: I would be okay with that only if it were optional if the child and/or parents had a reason for not doing the actual dissection. I don't think it's right to force children to dissect animals, particularly if they hold very strong vegetarian or vegan views. But I think if it were to be optional it would have to be for good reasons, not just because "I don't want to do it cause I don't want to". Tough, you don't want to go to school and you don't have a good reason for that either :P.


I actually have funny stories about dissecting animals...but unless people want to hear it I'll shut up.

[Rafael Domination]

Tell me! :D

And who knows, maybe zomb can be inspired from this as well! :crazy:

[Pibs]

To Pibs idea about making it optional: I would be okay with that only if it were optional if the child and/or parents had a reason for not doing the actual dissection. I don't think it's right to force children to dissect animals, particularly if they hold very strong vegetarian or vegan views. But I think if it were to be optional it would have to be for good reasons, not just because "I don't want to do it cause I don't want to". Tough, you don't want to go to school and you don't have a good reason for that either :P.

Thanks Shaun for elaborating! That's a good point. The students all would have to do something though, like perhaps watch a teacher dissect a single animal or perhaps use a computer program. So we'd be preserving froggy lives and everyone would still be learning.

[Crocolyle]

We can't cook dissected chickens because of the formaldehyde. I don't think it goes to waste if it's used as an educational tool. But that's just my opinion.

I agree with making it optional.

[Pibs]

Formaldehyde?
...
Geez, now I feel stupid.
I know what it is, but what does it have to do with dissecting chickens?

[Imelda]

Um ... do don't have to preserve an animal that's being killed, dissected, cooked, and eaten within a few hours. :p You only use formaldehyde if you're sticking it in a jar.

[Shaun]

I know they go in formaldehyde when they're stored. But what if they're freshly slaughtered? Then you cook them afterwards. Problem solved.

[Rafael Domination]

That actually sounds reasonable! :D

There's usually a Cooking class somewhere in the same high school. Maybe we can remove the innards of a HUMANELY slaughtered chicken for them, and in return, they can give us half of that really good roast make from it.

[Shaun]

Exactly. Double the education, and a tasty meal at the end.

[Rafael Domination]

Now only if I can convince the school boards to agree with me! :P

[Pibs]

Agreed!

Now, what about the frogs and sheep eyes we dissect? :-P

[sXe_Jinxeh]

I say...let's just not do that...because eyes are utterly revolting.

[Rafael Domination]

Actually, the jelly-like substance in the eyes can made a great protein-rich, fat-free desert with enough sugar! ^^