When is discrimination too much?

[Shaun]

I'm just going to assume that most of us living in countries that are somewhat American (in general feel, as in the same basic freedoms and rules of Western Culture, not so much the actual cultural presentation).

So, when do you think it is acceptable to discriminate against someone for whatever reason? Or do you think there is no time when it should be allowed (from a governmental perspective)? Is there a point where you have to draw a line?

[Nyx]

I don't think there's ever a good time to discriminate, but maybe if I was given an example?

[Ichigo]

Discrimination is a strange topic for me. I DO NOT think it's right at all. Hating on someone for beliefs or skin color is the stupidest thing because we're really all the same. But I also have issues with things just for ONE race. I don't know how to explain it really...but I mean don't you think sometimes perks are like....pity perks?
Arg... I don't know how to say it.

[Shaun]

Oh I agree. Sometimes we grant people of minorities certain things we don't afford to those of other minorities or even majorities for that matter. We do it to give them a boost, which is like having pity. Ethically speaking it's wrong.

[Rafael Domination]

Well, I also think there's a line between discrimination (which in a way, is hypocritical judgement) and logical evaluation. I can acknowledge the someone is, let's say, a Filipino. And logically, most of us don't grow tall, so I can make that logical assumption. But the moment is use that assumption and hold it maliciously against that person, then it become wrong.

But as for beliefs, it's a little different. Some people deserve to be 'discriminated' against, and if it were up to me: Erradicated. The KKK and human-sacrificing Satanists are a prime example.

[Shaun]

Okay, so how do you draw the line between what groups should be discriminated against and what shouldn't be discriminated against? What are the criteria?

[Ichigo]

Nothing for racial reasons. That just pisses me off. But I guess Raffy is right about the KKK and the human sacrifice people. But is discrimination the right thing to do to them? Wouldn't that just make them more angry and potentially cause something bigger?

[Shaun]

Well that's a problem. If we don't discriminate against such groups to a certain extent, then another group would be discriminated against. So I guess the criteria would be that one should be discriminated against if he/she/it is detrimental to society or the progression of mankind.

[Rafael Domination]

Actually, I wouldn't discriminate against the KKK

I'd destroy them. Slowly. ^^

Well, ONE of the criteria I have agaist such a group is that they use a false sense of self-righteousness to justify a malicious act against a minority who hasn't done anything to them in the first place. If I were to discriminate against the KKK, it would be more of a retaliation. To discriminate against some racial/ethnic group when they haven't wronged me in the first place, is something totally different.

[Shaun]

Well, ONE of the criteria I have agaist such a group is that they use a false sense of self-righteousness to justify a malicious act against a minority who hasn't done anything to them in the first place. If I were to discriminate against the KKK, it would be more of a retaliation. To discriminate against some racial/ethnic group when they haven't wronged me in the first place, is something totally different.

Despite how much I do think this group is wicked I do have to offer a short defense.

Not all of the KKK groups are like their predecessors. There is a new movement in the racist KKK camp where they don't want to kill or ruin the lives of minority groups (particularly blacks), but still hold on to the white supremacy ideal that people should breed within their respective colors. Such groups hold PEACEFUL protests, and sadly the protests are hard to keep that way because people who dislike them don't realize they aren't the same as their ancestors and set out to cause violence and issues.
Do I think they are right in their beliefs? No, not in the slightest. However I respect their right to breed however they wish, because I will not impose rules that tell you who you can and cannot breed with (except where such breeding would result in incest and similar).

Now as for the groups that are violent and want to suppress blacks, etc. I agree with you Raf. They should be removed and for the most part they have no authority whatsoever. They are detrimental to society. They haven't done anything to me personally, however I do take it as something against my race (using that word loosely) that they continue to preach White hatred. I have no issues with race whatsoever, but their message does harm my ability, in some cases, to live without having to say that or explain it.

[Rafael Domination]

However I respect their right to breed however they wish, because I will not impose rules that tell you who you can and cannot breed with

Agreed. But oh, if it were the case of only selective breeding, then they can breed for all I care. The things is, they killed people out of racism. That's what I hate. Selective Breeding to maintain the purity of something is their buisness. They will reap the benefits and disadgantages of such a thing by themselves. But to attempt to physically erradicate a large group of people out of pure malice, that's something they'll burn in hell for.

And this goes for all their 'predecessors' and affiliates too. Yes Hitler and Stalin, I'm looking at you. The blood of a lot of Jews are on your hands.

[Shaun]

Agreed. But oh, if it were the case of only selective breeding, then they can breed for all I care. The things is, they killed people out of racism. That's what I hate. Selective Breeding to maintain the purity of something is their buisness. They will reap the benefits and disadgantages of such a thing by themselves. But to attempt to physically erradicate a large group of people out of pure malice, that's something they'll burn in hell for.

And this goes for all their 'predecessors' and affiliates too. Yes Hitler and Stalin, I'm looking at you. The blood of a lot of Jews are on your hands.

Hold on. The vast majority of the people who are in these racist groups haven't killed people. You have to take that into account.
The KKK were marginally successful at getting rid of blacks. If you want to look at exterminations that were far more successful:
Stalin's Purges
Hitler's Final Solution
Early America's Native American Massacres.
China...repeatedly...
Japan's Massacres in China
Darfur

Remember, there are few nations or individuals who have done worse than what the U.S. has done. We almost wiped out all the Native Americans, and many tribes are actually gone entirely.

As for the KKK, I respect their right to say whatever they want, but I don't respect their right to discriminate against anyone at all. Believe what you want, but don't break the rules.

[Rafael Domination]

Note: I also included Hitler and Stalin. They've demonstrated the crossing-over-the-line phenomenon.

[Zaphkiel]

Deep down, all KKK members are the same, no matter how you look at it. You may think they're more peaceful, but they're only doing that phony facade because we live in a world that that enforces laws a lot better than they did in the last two centuries. I bet if I walked in to one of these KKK bases, they'd kill me for sure if they could cover it up.

I don't think you completely understand, Shaun. Of course, I respect your opinions, but I don't think you fully understand the impact events such slavery and discrimination had on my ethnicity, even though you have knowledge of some events that took place. However, having knowledge of an event and fully understanding the pain, sweat, blood, suffering and tears that were caused are two different things.

[jordanisonfire]

KKK are entitled to their opinions, but others still have the right to call them bastards because of their opinions. And what's this talk about races? We're all the same species, people! Just because we happen to come from a different part of the world makes us no different.

[Zaphkiel]

Say that to the KKK and any other discriminating groups...you might just make them laugh.

[jordanisonfire]

Yeah, I know. Then I'll rip their throats out.

[Shaun]

Deep down, all KKK members are the same, no matter how you look at it. You may think they're more peaceful, but they're only doing that phony facade because we live in a world that that enforces laws a lot better than they did in the last two centuries. I bet if I walked in to one of these KKK bases, they'd kill me for sure if they could cover it up.

I don't think you completely understand, Shaun. Of course, I respect your opinions, but I don't think you fully understand the impact events such slavery and discrimination had on my ethnicity, even though you have knowledge of some events that took place. However, having knowledge of an event and fully understanding the pain, sweat, blood, suffering and tears that were caused are two different things.

No, I do fully understand and I do not deny that the KKK has done horrendous things. I have to live with the stain of hundreds of years of slavery and hatred that my ancestors were responsible for. I understand what hatred looks like and I fully understand the ramifications of racism. I don't support racism and never will. I don't even think we're that different. Skin color isn't enough for me to think someone different. You're no different than I am Zaph. I'm white, you're black, so what? We're still human and we both breath and bleed the same. We reproduce the same, we have the same basic DNA (with minor changes obviously, otherwise we'd be twins). It doesn't matter to me if your skin color is different. I like you for who you are. Yes, you're black and obviously you have a different color of skin, but that doesn't matter to me. I've never based my life on skin color. It's too stupid and illogical.

That being said I think we're not acknowledging that people do change. I know people who are this new breed of KKK (some of them don't call themselves KKK because of the negative association with that word...a good negative association mind you), and they have black friends and they don't speak hatred, but for them they think it isn't right to breed outside of one's "race". As far as I'm concerned as long as they aren't doing what my ancestors did, then they can think that all they want. Some of these people are just legit. Those that really hate racial equality are the ones we all know about...the angry, violent ones. The white supremacists, etc. (I've met these neo-Nazis before and they are so bad that any time they do a 'peaceful protest' the police have to come just to make sure nothing happens).

That being said, I do understand where you are coming from Zaph. I understand why you feel that way and you have every right to feel that way. Your ancestors were slaves. They were beaten, humiliated, and probably killed. Some of them were probably raped and they could do nothing about it because in those times blacks were considered even lower than women (making them not even human by the word of law). I don't want that to ever be repeated again for any race. It's wrong and it is a stain that this planet and its people will have to remember for as long as it exists. I also have no delusions that racism is gone. I now it exists, but thankfully it is subsiding and will at least one day be almost gone.

[jordanisonfire]

That being said I think we're not acknowledging that people do change.

That doesn't change what they've done, though. If someone had done terrible things like that and then sincerely apologised for doing it later on and come to our side of thinking, I wouldn't accept their apology. If they were truly sorry, they'd be prepared to face the consequences.

[Shaun]

What about all the people who haven't done anything? There are a lot of these people that weren't involved in the civil rights movements. There are a lot of 20 year olds and the like. They've done nothing other than be related to people who have done something. Should they still be held accountable? If that's the case then nobody in the world is innocent, no matter the race.

[jordanisonfire]

If someone had done terrible things like that

That's what I said. If it's someone innocent, then I'd let them off.

[Shaun]

Oh oops, I misread. The first sentence made it seem like you were saying something else :S. The mind plays tricks :P

[Nyx]

We're all the same species, people! Just because we happen to come from a different part of the world makes us no different.

I wish everyone would get the whole same species idea...it hurts like hell when being judged because of coming from another part of the world.

[jordanisonfire]

Oh oops, I misread. The first sentence made it seem like you were saying something else :S. The mind plays tricks :P

S'ok. :D

I wish everyone would get the whole same species idea...it hurts like hell when being judged because of coming from another part of the world.

I've never actually been discriminated against about my race (I don't think many Whites do get discriminated for race), but I can imagine it's a bad experience. Even terrible if it's a persistant bullying instead of just a few snide comments.

[Nyx]

S'ok. :D



I've never actually been discriminated against about my race (I don't think many Whites do get discriminated for race), but I can imagine it's a bad experience. Even terrible if it's a persistant bullying instead of just a few snide comments.


Surprisingly, even the ocasional snide comments are pretty hurtful. Unfortunately, even though I thought I was pretty strong, I don't think it's possible for such comments to not hurt.

[jordanisonfire]

Well, I didn't really imply snide comments were unhurtful. But, I don't know what it's like, so I have no real experience.

[Nyx]

Well, I didn't really imply snide comments were unhurtful. But, I don't know what it's like, so I have no real experience.

I wasn't implying that you implied that..:P

[Shaun]

By the way, whites do get discriminated against and there is such a thing as racism against whites. It happens all the time. However, because of the way whites are generally raised we get the impression that we aren't allowed to have a problem with such treatment because of what our ancestors were responsible for. But, in all honesty, that's bullcrap. Any racism is bad racism. I don't care what color you are. It's wrong all across the board.

[Nyx]

By the way, whites do get discriminated against and there is such a thing as racism against whites. It happens all the time. However, because of the way whites are generally raised we get the impression that we aren't allowed to have a problem with such treatment because of what our ancestors were responsible for. But, in all honesty, that's bullcrap. Any racism is bad racism. I don't care what color you are. It's wrong all across the board.

I never knew that "whites" were raised to believe that it's ok for them to be descriminated against?

[Zaphkiel]

The only reason some whites may get discriminated against is because of events such as slavery and the civil rights movement. I will admit that some blacks and other ethnicities have put the blame on all Caucasians, which isn't the right thing to do.

[Rafael Domination]

What are people's views on specieism? Speci-? Whatever.

Y'know...the thing when people think they're better than animals. Apparently, some people in my school think it's, like, the sin to end all sins or something. Should I tell them to go eat themselves or should I agree?

[Shaun]

I never knew that "whites" were raised to believe that it's ok for them to be descriminated against?

It's not that we're raised that way, it's that we're constantly reminded of what WHITES have done to other races, over and over. After having that drilled into your head for 12 years of school generally puts you in a position to think you have no right to protest when racism is reverted to you. It's not right at all. If we use that logic then by all means we should discriminate against everyone. We'd go against the Germans, the Russians, the Americans, the Indians, the Europeans, the British, the Chinese, the Japanese, etc etc etc etc. To everyone. The way we look at things right now places a lot of blame on Whites for the crimes of humanity, when really we are all culpable for terrible crimes.
The point is, racism/discrimination has no place in society so long as it hurts people.

[Shaun]

What are people's views on specieism? Speci-? Whatever.

Y'know...the thing when people think they're better than animals. Apparently, some people in my school think it's, like, the sin to end all sins or something. Should I tell them to go eat themselves or should I agree?

Depends if you can come up with a good reason why we're better. Just cause we can talk doesn't mean a whole lot.

[Rafael Domination]

The point is, racism/discrimination has no place in society



Mmmm...agreed. Now, how are we supposed to discourage such things? I mean, it's one thing to infringe on people's 'freedom' to speak, but it's another to preserve the dignity of others under attack by such brutality. Any suggestions YWO?

I'd, personally, just maul someone who's racist. Actually, I was on the verge of doing so. It was at a youth activity. We were snow-tubing when this guy (not naming any names here) told one of my African-American (or Canadian :P) friends that he really did 'stand out' against the snow. He didn't mean it in a joking way, and he said it with a sneer. He thought he was being very subtle, but the only reason why I didn't respond immediately was because I was deciding on whether I should kick him down the moutain slope or smash in his windpipe. Luckily, my sister came to save the day. She shot back, "Yeah? Well at least we (our youth group) can find him." (implying the racist young man was as pale as a boiled egg). The guy blushed and left. Now, my question is, how do we respond to to racism without looking like a) Idiots. b) Infringers on Freedom of Speech. c) We went overkill?

[Shaun]

You can't really respond to racism other than to ignore it. The problem with racism is that you can't infringe on their rights to say whatever they want. What we can do is create laws that punish them for discriminating based on race, which we have.

Raf, beating people up isn't going to help either. In fact, the best thing you can do with racism is ignore it entirely. Just laugh it off. It'll annoy them more than their actions annoy you.

[Rafael Domination]

I know, I know :P I was able to control myself.


The thing is, I am not in the wrong by choosing not to ignore it. I have freedom of speech too. And I choose to say that racsim is unacceptable within a ten meter radius near me, at least, not without me doing anything about it. That's my little bubble, and if someone chooses to pollute it with such disgusting behavor, then I guess they brought it on themselves.

They've gotten away with their foolishness. I can get away with mine. ^^


Edit: I tried the ignore-it tactic. It didn't go away. The same guy only took it as a sign that he can keep doing it all he wants. And I think it brought on him a false sense of superiority - which was ended by the brother of my African-American friend laying one, just one, blow to his racist kisser. It shut him up pretty good. Now, I don't care if he says things behind our backs. He has 'freedom' of speech after all. But my friends and I won't take it to our face and let it slide.

[carlyt]

Has anyone read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book "Infidel"? It's her story of being raised as a Muslim in Somalia and finally ending up in Holland as a refugee. She starts to question how it is that a country which supposedly represents evrything that is offensive to Muslims (free sex, short skirts etc etc) is such a successful society. Then she looks at how Muslim people are dealing with these issues and finds that they aren't doing it well, as they are criticising that society whilst benefitting from it. She ends up in the Dutch government openly debating the need to be able to criticise and she is acused of racism and discrimination (against her own people and religion) and having death threats made against her (she made a film with her colleague Theo van Goghe about Muslim women and he was assassinated for it.)

So all this to say, in my view, discrimination in any form really needs to be based on information and understanding first - what do people think and why do the believe in and act in the ways they do. Then, instead of criticising, debate openly.

If one way of doing something is genuinely better, for measurable and objective reasons, then surely other people will follow by example, they don't ned to be coerced.

I have been looking at discussion forums between Muslims and various other faiths / non-believers at sites like www.faithfreedom.org (not for the faint hearted!) and it's a huge eye opener to see how people think, attack each other, insult each other.

I'm not sure that racism can and should be ignored, it needs to be faced up to and eradicated through education.

(And it's only 10 a.m. and I'm only on my first cup of coffee - rant over, back to writing about kittens and roses round the door).

[jordanisonfire]

Well, if I were you, Raf, I would've let your sister say that, then punched his windpipe in. Seriously, all this "ignore it" shit gets you nowhere, it just makes you appear weak and as if you're agreeing with what you're saying. They have a right to say that stuff, but, in my opinion, I and everyone else has the right to come out with a retort or smash their face in. That's the only way they'll stop.

[Shaun]

Well, if the ignore tactic doesn't work, then you can always go one step up, which is actually fun for me. When they say something, just laugh like it's actually funny. It's great. They get so pissed off when they try to spread their hatred and all you do is laugh. And then if they try to bring violence, well it's open game :).

As for the Muslim thing, there are HUGE problems in European nations with Muslim communities because they refuse to adhere to the law of land, which is a prerequisite if you want to live in another country. If you're not willing to follow the rules, then you are going to have lots of problems. Because Muslim culture tends to be very different than many European nations it is really easy to offend Muslims, and they aren't afraid to voice their opinions. The problem is sometimes that results in violence. We all remember what happened with that Dutch image of Muhammad right? Death threats from Muslims, violence, vandalism, etc. This is the problem with immigration. People from other countries with very different values think they can shape how things progress by taking their right to violent confrontation (this isn't just Muslims, there are other groups that do this too). Western Culture is not Muslim Culture and Muslims wanting to live in Western Culture have to accept that. The Dutch world is really crazy right now because a lot of politicians there are sick of the Muslim bullying (yes, this is happening, and it probably is more representative of an extremist Muslim culture rather than the majority of Muslims). There will be changes made and Muslims aren't going to like it. The guy heading it has already had death threats made against him, which only further proves his point. Violence very rarely works, especially violence that borders on terrorism. Bombing buildings, sending death threats, etc. All of that does nothing but to make a populace more afraid and more likely to infringe upon the rights of others as a means to protect the masses.

That being said, when we talk about two cultures so vastly different and the nature of discrimination, a lot of that has to do with the differences. But that doesn't mean one should treat Muslims with violence, hatred, or whatever. It's wrong.

And you can't rid the world of racism without violating the rights of innocent people. We're all a little bit racist whether we want to admit it or not. ALL OF US ARE. Any time you make a funny joke that happens to poke fun at a race, that's racism, and we all make them from time to time without even knowing it. The difference is that they're jokes, generally about stereotypes. White people make jokes about black genitalia all the time. That's incredibly racist, but is it necessarily harmful? I don't think so. Whites get made fun of a lot too, and Asians. Remember, us whites only listen to country western music and beat our wives and live in trailer parks...or we're all rich and evil. Asians are all geniuses who can do math. We laugh at such jokes because they are ridiculous.

Alternately, when we look at the evolution of racism we'll see that we can't really get rid of it without brainwashing people and that, in my mind, is far worse than keeping racism around.

[carlyt]

Yes, yes, yes. Well said. And, education, education, education.

[Nyx]

You can't really respond to racism other than to ignore it. The problem with racism is that you can't infringe on their rights to say whatever they want. What we can do is create laws that punish them for discriminating based on race, which we have.

Raf, beating people up isn't going to help either. In fact, the best thing you can do with racism is ignore it entirely. Just laugh it off. It'll annoy them more than their actions annoy you.

No offense, ignoring it does no help. It seems like one is agreeing with what they're saying.

Well, if the ignore tactic doesn't work, then you can always go one step up, which is actually fun for me. When they say something, just laugh like it's actually funny. It's great. They get so pissed off when they try to spread their hatred and all you do is laugh. And then if they try to bring violence, well it's open game :).

But why laugh? Just to piss them off? So they can be racist to the next guy?
There's nothing funny about it. I mean I've laughed to piss off someone racist before, but it doesn't really stop them being racist, it just means they might not aim their racist opinions at you anymore.

[Rafael Domination]

Basically, if they want to be racist, they better keep it to themselves. The moment they make any outward show of that sick behaviour, they better be ready to lose a few teeth ^^

[Nyx]

Basically, if they want to be racist, they better keep it to themselves. The moment they make any outward show of that sick behaviour, they better be ready to lose a few teeth ^^

Hm, I guess..I just don't see why anyone would be racist, even if they "keep it to themselves". I don't see a problem with it when it's a joke between friends..but being racist is so hurtful.
A guy in our school made a terrorist comment aimed at me and I was really about to punch him for good...Of course I managed to not but it just really pisses me off when people think it's ok to be racist.

[Rafael Domination]

It's the 'freedom of speech' thing. Personally, I'd ban racists from that Human Right, but I guess I'm not in that position of power.

[Zaphkiel]

Basically, if they want to be racist, they better keep it to themselves. The moment they make any outward show of that sick behaviour, they better be ready to lose a few teeth ^^

I think my personality is starting to rub off on you, Raf!:D

Oh, and Shaun, if someone were to give me a racist remark, especially in this day and age, I won't just "laugh" about it. I will "laugh" after they pick their jaw up from the floor though, because that;s how hard I will hit them!:mad:

[Rafael Domination]

I think my personality is starting to rub off on you, Raf!

If you can't beat em...join em! :D

Ahem...yeah.

Basically, when we laugh about it, we say that racism doesn't bother us. BUT. IT. SHOULD. It's like bullying. We think that by holding hands and uniting in some sappy rank, we are 'making a stand'. But I've been there. IT DIDN'T STOP until the victims MADE their persecutors stop. Elimination. That's a surefire way of stopping things. Like the dinosaurs, racism should become a thing of the past.

[Nyx]

With it being said that laughing and ignoring aren't the best way to deal with it. Violence isn't either. Afterall, it teaches nothing to those who will make more racist comments.

[Rafael Domination]

It teaches them to keep it to themselves. ^^

Edit: I'm not saying that violence is the onle method we should use. It's education and reason that we should rely on more. I'm just saying, violence comes in a nice second place, and it's easier to stuff information through a broken head than closed ears.

(I'm SOOOOOOO using that as a quote in one of my novels :D)

[Shaun]

By treating a violent behavior with more violence all you do is prove them that they are right and you're lower than they are in the first place. If you want to prove that you are not a lower lifeform to people who aren't willing to see the truth, then you have to act like a higher lifeform by doing things that might even piss you off. Whenever you create violence you just provide them with the political push to get protection. If you want to grant political and legal protection to people that hate you, then by all means, go for it. They already have freedom of speech, but soon you'll be granting them the right to sue the living crap out of you for acting out of hate. This is the path to turning reverse hatred into a hate crime. You might think that sounds like insanity, but if more people start thinking like you guys and assume that it's okay to just bash people's teeth in because they made an ignorant and assholish comment, then you'll be providing them the fuel to spark their movement once more. Imagine if every Black man hit every White man who made a racist comment. Can you expect Blacks to hold on to many rights for very long? No, and then we'll revert right back to where we were.

Progress doesn't lie in violence. It lies in gentle coercion, non-violent means of change, and ignoring the problem until it dies. You can't defeat racism by fighting fire with fire. That's a logical fallacy.

If that's the world you want to live in, please let me know so I can move.

[Nyx]

Progress doesn't lie in violence. It lies in gentle coercion, non-violent means of change, and ignoring the problem until it dies.



I'm not behind violence, it's just the first thing that comes to my mind when I see racism. But, "ignoring the problem until it dies"? I'm sorry but that is all wrong. A problem doesn't die by being ignored. If every kid that got bullied ignored the bully they'd just contiue to be bullied, over and over. If every kid that got hit by their parents did nothing and ignored it, they would be abused forever.

A problem doesn't die until one takes a stand.

[Shaun]

I'm not behind violence, it's just the first thing that comes to my mind when I see racism. But, "ignoring the problem until it dies"? I'm sorry but that is all wrong. A problem doesn't die by being ignored. If every kid that got bullied ignored the bully they'd just contiue to be bullied, over and over. If every kid that got hit by their parents did nothing and ignored it, they would be abused forever.

A problem doesn't die until one takes a stand.

...We're talking about two entirely different issues. Someone getting beaten on is different than someone saying "hey, there's a stupid black guy over there". One is physical and the other is not. It's your choice to be bothered by what someone else says, but it's not your choice to be bothered by someone beating on you.
But throwing violence at a problem that is violent in its portrayal, but isn't actually a violent act anymore is like throwing gasoline on a fire. By taking the jump from just laughing something of, ignoring it, or simply voicing an opinion to smashing someone's face in you're only adding to the problem. By throwing a fit you're also validating them. Bullies tease kids they know they can bug. If all they do is tease and all you do is shrug it off and laugh or pretend it doesn't bug you, bullies generally get bored and walk off. I know, I've dealt with this. Violence was never the answer unless there came a time when I had to act because it meant defending myself.

Racism isn't what it used to be. In most places it is dying out. There are very few actual racists anymore (as in people that actually hate people of other races). They do exist and they are in force where they exist, but in comparison to what the world was like in the 1800s, it's nothing.
You also have to realize that minorities have more rights in countries like the U.S. than non-minorities. There are entire law books about race politics that are designed to defend your right to be here and to live a good life. While this is meant to protect minority rights, it also means some people who are more qualified for a job can't get it because a business HAS to hire a Hispanic man or a Black man in order to stay in business. There are racial quotas in many states that make it so businesses have to hire a certain number of people from certain races or they can't be in business. Sometimes the law even protects people who clearly break the law by acting out in violence against someone of another minority or a non-minority.
That's not to say that racism is right, but you have to approach such subjects from an entirely different position now. We can't look at it the same as we did 100 years ago.
Ghandi could have roused a lot of monks and caused a lot of hell in India, but he didn't and he succeeded. Granted, his was a protest, but at a time when violence was the way things were done, his method was new and an embarrassment to the English Empire. One man defeated an entire nation by starving himself.
We are in a different period now, and as such we have to go from polite protest to a slower form of coercion.

[Rafael Domination]

By treating a violent behavior with more violence all you do is prove them that they are right and you're lower than they are in the first place


Ahahah! :D That's what they all say. Yet, I fail to see how. I'd only be proving that I was 'lower' by doing the same thing they're doing AND something worse. All I did was ignore them until they got too cocky, and then shut them up. Did I continue with physical force as I did? I stopped. How would I be proving I was lower?

No. It crushed their notion that I was inferior in any way. If they are sooooo superior, how come they're the ones languishing at my feet, broken up?

I'm not, however, saying that it should stop at that. No, it's like spanking. Afterwards, a talk using logical reasoning should proceed. People should really stop considering that cliche concept.


hey, there's a stupid black guy over there


Eye for an eye. If all they said was words, I'd respond with words. The thing is, the thought has to be established: 'This kind of thing will be noticed, and will not be tolerated."

Please. If ignoring things did work, then why did that bastard keep on going, spewing his crap in front of everyone until someone shoved it back into his mouth. Then he stopped. We ignored him for a long time. He did not. Stop. He took it as 'Hey, they don't care, I guess I can keep on doing it.' It's his hobby. Art is my hobby. I have never been bored of art. He has never been bored of picking on others.

Now, before any counters are said, I KNOW THAT THIS MIGHT BE ONLY ON THIS OCCASSION. The 'ignore it' tactic might work on someone else. I think we should also be flexible in handling these kinds of people. If violence is the only that works on them, use it. If silence is the only that will work, use it instead. My point is that the majority of the racist people I've seen only stopped when they pushed on an obstacle that pushed back. That's from my experience. I may be young, but living in British Colombia, in a place that has been pronounced as one of the most multi-cultural places on Earth, you get a lot of incidents in school.

[Shaun]

Ahahah! :D That's what they all say. Yet, I fail to see how. I'd only be proving that I was 'lower' by doing the same thing they're doing AND something worse. All I did was ignore them until they got too cocky, and then shut them up. Did I continue with physical force as I did? I stopped. How would I be proving I was lower?

If they hate you more in the end, you've done nothing but proven them right in the first place.

Eye for an eye. If all they said was words, I'd respond with words. The thing is, the thought has to be established: 'This kind of thing will be noticed, and will not be tolerated."

Please. If ignoring things did work, then why did that bastard keep on going, spewing his crap in front of everyone until someone shoved it back into his mouth. Then he stopped. We ignored him for a long time. He did not. Stop. He took it as 'Hey, they don't care, I guess I can keep on doing it.' It's his hobby. Art is my hobby. I have never been bored of art. He has never been bored of picking on others.

Raf, you're talking ONE event at one point in time if I read you correctly. You can't ignore for one day and expect the whole world to change. Gandhi didn't starve himself for a day and change the shape of India. You can't expect change to happen overnight. That's not how the world works. The Civil Rights movement didn't happen in a day. WW2 didn't happen in a day.
People get bored when you don't pay attention to them.

Now, before any counters are said, I KNOW THAT THIS MIGHT BE ONLY ON THIS OCCASSION. The 'ignore it' tactic might work on someone else. I think we should also be flexible in handling these kinds of people. If violence is the only that works on them, use it. If silence is the only that will work, use it instead. My point is that the majority of the racist people I've seen only stopped when they pushed on an obstacle that pushed back. That's from my experience. I may be young, but living in British Colombia, in a place that has been pronounced as one of the most multi-cultural places on Earth, you get a lot of incidents in school.

They seem like they stop, but they don't, Raf. If that were the case then obviously Martin Luther King, Jr. would have been a dismal failure, but he wasn't. He never met violence with violence. The man was shot several times and yet he never resorted to violence. Would you deny that his peaceful approach was a success? He's one of the greatest men to have ever walked the face of the Earth, and he was murdered by violent people who are now almost extinct. Now it's a battle of the mouths. And when you meet them on the violent playing field that they first created and have no forgotten that puts you in the position of the oppressor. If you want to stop racism, you have to treat it as a symptom of a psychosis. Don't put yourself in the position of becoming the violent one.

[Nyx]

...We're talking about two entirely different issues. Someone getting beaten on is different than someone saying "hey, there's a stupid black guy over there". One is physical and the other is not. It's your choice to be bothered by what someone else says, but it's not your choice to be bothered by someone beating on you.

I used bullying as an example as well as abuse, by bullying I didn't mean only physical, emotional can hurt just as much.

I do realize that it is one's choice to be bothered by words, but it is hard to have a mentality strong enough to bare repetitive hurtful comments. Of course some people did bare words and violence, and these were people like Martin Luther King, Jr. But for us average people? How are we to deal with it if we are not strong enough to bare such things?


But throwing violence at a problem that is violent in its portrayal, but isn't actually a violent act anymore is like throwing gasoline on a fire. By taking the jump from just laughing something of, ignoring it, or simply voicing an opinion to smashing someone's face in you're only adding to the problem.

I already mentioned that I am not behind violence.

By throwing a fit you're also validating them. Bullies tease kids they know they can bug. If all they do is tease and all you do is shrug it off and laugh or pretend it doesn't bug you, bullies generally get bored and walk off. I know, I've dealt with this. Violence was never the answer unless there came a time when I had to act because it meant defending myself.

That's also another cliche that I found isn't true. Bullies don't tease kids who they can bug, they bully kids who they know won't protect themselves and don't have anyone who will protect them. Therefore by ignoring? The bullied is only proving that the bully is right, the bully can say what ever the fuck he or she wishes to say, and the victim will take it.

[Rafael Domination]

As I said, it might just be on that one occasion, but the thing is, it still worked. The guy may have still held onto his beliefs, but all the same, he never pestered anyone anymore. I 'm also well aware of the fact that we can't change everyone in one day. The things is we should try anyways. You aim high, your shooy low. If you try to erradicate racism, chances are you might not succeed in a long time, but at least a radical change will happen in a much shorter time than just letting things slide by. Revolutions didn't happen by people letting things slide by. Now, I also acknowledge the fact that some were violent, and some were peaceful, and as I also said earlier, we should be flexible in dealing with racists. If education and peacful reasoning will shut them up, then use it. If violence will, then use it. Violence worked on the guy who pestered me and my friends. A simple talk might work on another racist person. I don't know. All I want to do is end it as soon as possible without doing nothing.

[Shaun]

I used bullying as an example as well as abuse, by bullying I didn't mean only physical, emotional can hurt just as much.

I do realize that it is one's choice to be bothered by words, but it is hard to have a mentality strong enough to bare repetitive hurtful comments. Of course some people did bare words and violence, and these were people like Martin Luther King, Jr. But for us average people? How are we to deal with it if we are not strong enough to bare such things?

There's really no such thing as average people when it comes to this. Some people simply choose to let words affect them. If someone calls me a bastard, I just shrug it off. It doesn't matter to me. It shouldn't matter to you either.
The only time this changes is when someone is WRITING things about you in published forums. Then things change...cause that's libel :P

That's also another cliche that I found isn't true. Bullies don't tease kids who they can bug, they bully kids who they know won't protect themselves and don't have anyone who will protect them. Therefore by ignoring? The bullied is only proving that the bully is right, the bully can say what ever the fuck he or she wishes to say, and the victim will take it.

They tease people who won't protect themselves that REACT in the way they want them to. They react in ways that show that they are bothered. By ignoring and not letting what the bully says bother you, by smiling and laughing about it, you're proving you're better than the bully. Let the bully say whatever he or she wants. Doesn't matter. Bullies stop bugging people that aren't bothered by them. They only bully if you react.

As I said, it might just be on that one occasion, but the thing is, it still worked. The guy may have still held onto his beliefs, but all the same, he never pestered anyone anymore. I 'm also well aware of the fact that we can't change everyone in one day. The things is we should try anyways. You aim high, your shooy low. If you try to erradicate racism, chances are you might not succeed in a long time, but at least a radical change will happen in a much shorter time than just letting things slide by. Revolutions didn't happen by people letting things slide by. Now, I also acknowledge the fact that some were violent, and some were peaceful, and as I also said earlier, we should be flexible in dealing with racists. If education and peacful reasoning will shut them up, then use it. If violence will, then use it. Violence worked on the guy who pestered me and my friends. A simple talk might work on another racist person. I don't know. All I want to do is end it as soon as possible without doing nothing.

All you did was make that guy hate you even more, and now he's going to grow up, have children, and teach his children his amplified hatred.
Eradicating racism...sorry, that's wrong. There are some things you simply can't do and using terms like eradicate in relation to this is sort of wrong. Education hasn't worked because you can't teach kids at home. Parents teach, and so long as racist parents exist there will be racist children. The only way you can change that is infringe on their rights, which is illegal.

Your violence just added to the problem. Look at Iraq. What has war there done for us but increase the chances that we'll be attacked again? Fighting violence with violence rarely works. There are very few exceptions.

[Rafael Domination]

Eradicating racism...sorry, that's wrong


How? I suppose you're not one for a unified humanity, then?

Besides, I'm not delusional either. I know that is an impossible goal. But as I said earlier. Aim high, shoot low. We may not succeed at totally wiping out racism, but at least we can turn it into a rare ocassion, an unusual occurence that people think is wierd and disgusting. I don't really care what terms I use. I just want racism as gone as it can possibly be. We should treat it like smallpox. Use the most effective means possible to corner it like a rat and finish it off.

I don't care if that guy hates me. As I also said, he's entitled to his own opinions. But one things he's not entitled to, is crapping them out in front of everybody.

Edit: There's nothing wrong with erradicating a thought so detrimental to society. Erradicating people out of malice and for no good reason, that's something else.

[Shaun]

How? I suppose you're not one for a unified humanity, then?

Besides, I'm not delusional either. I know that is an impossible goal. But as I said earlier. Aim high, shoot low. We may not succeed at totally wiping out racism, but at least we can turn it into a rare ocassion, an unusual occurence that people think is wierd and disgusting. I don't really care what terms I use. I just want racism as gone as it can possibly be. We should treat it like smallpox. Use the most effective means possible to corner it like a rat and finish it off.

I don't care if that guy hates me. As I also said, he's entitled to his own opinions. But one things he's not entitled to, is crapping them out in front of everybody.

Edit: There's nothing wrong with erradicating a thought so detrimental to society. Erradicating people out of malice and for no good reason, that's something else.

Unified humanity? What does that even mean? Racism will never go away unless you want to destroy the tenants of democracy and civil rights. I'm not willing to become like the people who used to be racist. Those people were once willing to wipe out people they thought were detrimental to society, or at least enslave them and treat them like subhumans.

You're talking about treating it like an infection, but it's not an infection, it's a mindset. There is no way to root it out without destroying freedom. Are you willing to sacrifice your rights to cull the racist folks out of society?

The only unified humanity is one in which people can believe whatever they want, but must adhere to the same rules as everyone else. Racists do have to adhere to certain rules and they should be punished when they don't follow them.
One rule they don't have to follow is shutting up. He has ever right to cut you down in front of your friends. You don't have a right to treat him with violence, because that's called aggravated assault and it's against the law.

And there is everything wrong with eradicating something, because the only way to actually eradicate racism is to change the law and make it so people can only raise their children a certain and are governed in how they do business in life. That means EVERYONE has to be treated that way. The most we can do is ignore it, treat it like it's a subculture that doesn't really exist and deserves no attention, and only combat it when it violates the law.

Edit: Before anyone says it...no, I am not a racist. I never was a racist and never will be a racist. Nationalist, sure, but racist, no. I don't condone the actions of racists, I simple acknowledge that however crazy they are, they have rights and since they same rights I hold dear I'm willing to defend them...otherwise we'll end up like China.

[Rafael Domination]

they thought were detrimental to society

Ah, but the 'thought' part is the thing. I KNOW racism is wrong. You KNOW it is wrong. A few years from know, I won't look back and say, "golly, I THOUGHT racism was wrong." It IS wrong, and will always be.

I also said that exterminating people, even if they are racist, won't do. I'm not that evil. Sure, Azrael wants to do something like that, but hey, you can't really blame him. After all, he's the Angel of Death ^^


Unified humanity?


Apparently, you skipped the part where I said it was an impossible goal. I've already acknowledged that it's impossible to get rid of racism without kiling a few people, and that simply will not do.

My main point is, even if they do have freedom of speech...whatever that is...THEY. SHOULD. KEEP. THEIR. RUBBISH. TO. THEMSELVES. The moment they say anything to my face, they are infringing on my rights, and as such, I get to take a stab at theirs. It's only fair.

[Shaun]

Apparently, you skipped the part where I said it was an impossible goal. I've already acknowledged that it's impossible to get rid of racism without kiling a few people, and that simply will not do.

Nah, I read it, I just went on my own rant :P.

My main point is, even if they do have freedom of speech...whatever that is...THEY. SHOULD. KEEP. THEIR. RUBBISH. TO. THEMSELVES. The moment they say anything to my face, they are infringing on my rights, and as such, I get to take a stab at theirs. It's only fair.

Ah, but here is where the law says you're wrong. You have a right to free speech, but you don't have a right to be offended. Being offended is a choice that can't be controlled by someone else. So, in reality, if someone says "oh you're a stupid n-word", you have no right to do much other than talk back. If you attack for what they say, you're actually infringing on their rights, which they have legal right to uphold and take you to court for. The result is that you COULD be charged with a hate crime. That sounds far out, but this is what happens when you start turning the tables and treating people in the reverse.
So, by the law, you have no legal recourse for telling someone what they can and cannot keep to themselves, within in reason. Granted, if he follows you around everywhere and babbles, that's harassment. But if he's in a public space, not following you, and you choose to stick around while he talks, that's not his fault, that's yours. Whether you get offended or not gives you no legal recourse against his right to free speech.
They should keep it to themselves, but they don't have to :P. And no, it's not fair to stab at their rights. That's the same as saying "well white people used to be racists, so it's okay for black people to be racist against whites now". It's an illogical position to take :P.
What's the age old saying? Treat people the way you want to be treated. That means being civil even when someone is being a douchebag :P. That also means making the choice to smile, say "have a nice day", and politely walk away (by the way, I've done that to someone and it really pisses people off...if you just smile while they're ranting and say "have a nice day" and walk away...it pissed that person off so much they actually started turning red...and that was his choice to be a complete douchebag rather than being a nice citizen which I would have been :P).

See what I'm saying?

[Rafael Domination]

A)(i) I also said earlier - eye for an eye, word for word. If they talk, I'll simply talk back.

A)(ii) They can assault me if they want. Under Canadian law, I can use any force necessary to defend myself. So, it's their loss. ^^

B) I already know I can't tell them what to do. But all the same, they can't tell me not to respond. Appropriately, of course. I'm not that stupid. (Well, Azrael, is). If I go around gunning down every racist out there, I'd only get myself thrown in jail. No - they have to put themselves in a position where I can swoop down on them without looking like the bad guy. That means, if they're just talking smack, I'll talk in return, and if by any chance I touch a nerve and they come after me, they can't take me to court for self defence.

C) Treat people the way you want to be treated

I see what you're saying. So, since they're treating me like crap, I guess they WANT to be treated the same way. I'd only be returning the favor, then ^^. See how that works out.

No, I treated them like a person who was wrong and needs to understand. They screwed up and I corrected them accordingly (ie, word for word, blow for blow), and if I mess up in life, I expect others to do the same. That's how I treat people, and that's how I want to be treated.

Now, don't get me wrong. When they do show racism towards me, I don't do the same. I just twist their words around and make them look like an idiot. That's what sets me apart. That's what proves that even if I respond, I haven't sunk below their level.

D) The thing about the legality of things: that's my point. If the government took more steps to discourage this kind of thing in the first place then a lot of conflict would have never occured. That's what I'd like to push for. But nooooooo, there a lot of sissies out there cowering behind human rights as a facade. I hate it when humans exploit good things for their own purposes. Maybe I'd buy that 'Destroy all Humans' game one day just to let out some steam. Anyhoo...yeah, if I don't have the right to be offended, then they should also be prepared to not be offended when I say something back.

E) Oh, I've smiled and walked away a lot of times. Again, the attacks never stopped until someone (not me) put a stop in it personally. It works. But before this point is pulverizes again, remember my 'Let's be flexible' rant.

F) Nah, I read it, I just went on my own rant

Surprisingly, they didn't sound like rants. I mean, woah, they were rants? They sounded like pretty good points to me :P

G) You remind me of my Socials teacher - it's impossible to corner you in a debate :D

H) My hands hurt. Gee, I'm going to have to take typing lessons to catch up with the speed of people around here.

I) Good night. :P

[carlyt]

... I'm voting for Shaun

[Shaun]

A)(i) I also said earlier - eye for an eye, word for word. If they talk, I'll simply talk back.

This contributes to the problem, doesn't solve it. Eye for an eye really fails miserably. You can't treat racism with the same sort of hatred. It's like putting salt on a wound.

A)(ii) They can assault me if they want. Under Canadian law, I can use any force necessary to defend myself. So, it's their loss. ^^

It's the same in American Law as well. Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. is not really all that different from Canada or the U.K. We have some minor differences, but we all generally hold to same principles. :P
And yes, if you're attacked physically, you should defend yourself. But you shouldn't attack first.

B) I already know I can't tell them what to do. But all the same, they can't tell me not to respond. Appropriately, of course. I'm not that stupid. (Well, Azrael, is). If I go around gunning down every racist out there, I'd only get myself thrown in jail. No - they have to put themselves in a position where I can swoop down on them without looking like the bad guy. That means, if they're just talking smack, I'll talk in return, and if by any chance I touch a nerve and they come after me, they can't take me to court for self defence.

You could still go to court if it can be proven that you brought the attack upon yourself. There have been people charged with manslaughter who provoked an attack.
And no, they can't tell you not to respond, but you have a choice not to respond, and whenever you respond you provide fuel for them. It makes them angrier and angrier.

Now, don't get me wrong. When they do show racism towards me, I don't do the same. I just twist their words around and make them look like an idiot. That's what sets me apart. That's what proves that even if I respond, I haven't sunk below their level.

What it proves is that they are right about you in the first place. Their words can affect you in the manner which they want and by creating violence out of it or ridiculing them you simply make them stronger. Anyone you do this to is now going to teach his or her children an even darker form of the hatred they already possess.

D) The thing about the legality of things: that's my point. If the government took more steps to discourage this kind of thing in the first place then a lot of conflict would have never occured. That's what I'd like to push for. But nooooooo, there a lot of sissies out there cowering behind human rights as a facade. I hate it when humans exploit good things for their own purposes. Maybe I'd buy that 'Destroy all Humans' game one day just to let out some steam. Anyhoo...yeah, if I don't have the right to be offended, then they should also be prepared to not be offended when I say something back.

The same rights you are exhibiting right now are the rights they have equally right to. You can't grant protection for some and not for others. That's immoral. They may be wrong, but they have the same rights as you or I. If you want to change that, then you need to turn Canada into a Fascist country. I don't like it any more than you do. I would love to squash racism and make it go away, but I know that the law needs to be upheld for all.
And they are only doing what the people they used to oppress did to secure their rights. It wasn't that long ago that whites were trying to shut down blacks and blacks were voicing their right to Free Speech. It's just a reverse now.

E) Oh, I've smiled and walked away a lot of times. Again, the attacks never stopped until someone (not me) put a stop in it personally. It works. But before this point is pulverizes again, remember my 'Let's be flexible' rant.

One person cannot change the world on his or her own. The smile and walk away principle needs to be put through everyone. The problem is that people let things like this get to them every time. You can't do that. Live your life with a little more joy :P

G) You remind me of my Socials teacher - it's impossible to corner you in a debate :D

That's partially because I'm a god. I'm related to Zeus, but I'm not mean like he was. I'm on the nice side of his family.




And why am I being voted for?

[carlyt]

"Eye for an eye...will make the whole world blind" (Mahatma Gandhi)

[Shaun]

I knew there was a reason why I liked Gandhi. He wasn't a perfect man, but a good man for sure.

[Rafael Domination]

At least the "see no evil" concept will come in effect ^^

[Rafael Domination]

Edit: Whoops, I thought someone else responded already. Sorry for the double-post.

This contributes to the problem, doesn't solve it. Eye for an eye really fails miserably. You can't treat racism with the same sort of hatred. It's like putting salt on a wound.

Oh, it's not the same hatred, because I also said that IT DOESN'T STOP AT THAT. I also said we should use education and locial reasoning to supplement this kind of tactic. I also left them to CHOOSE whether they want to change or not. They can stay racist, but again, they better keep it to themselves.



It's the same in American Law as well. Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. is not really all that different from Canada or the U.K. We have some minor differences, but we all generally hold to same principles. :P
And yes, if you're attacked physically, you should defend yourself. But you shouldn't attack first.

But I've never attacked first. The guy always did ^^


You could still go to court if it can be proven that you brought the attack upon yourself. There have been people charged with manslaughter who provoked an attack.
And no, they can't tell you not to respond, but you have a choice not to respond, and whenever you respond you provide fuel for them. It makes them angrier and angrier.

Actually, they brought IT on themselves. They started, hence, they are at fault. If they attack with words, I defend with words. There's nothing wrong with that..



What it proves is that they are right about you in the first place. Their words can affect you in the manner which they want and by creating violence out of it or ridiculing them you simply make them stronger. Anyone you do this to is now going to teach his or her children an even darker form of the hatred they already possess.

Actually, I don't care, as long as their children keep it to themselves. The moment they take action too, my children will be ready and waiting. Besides, how are they right about me in the first place? If their opinion is that Filipinos are all whores and I counterattacked with words, and it pissed him off, I only proved that I'm better at words than he is. If I beat him up and raped him/her on the spot, then I've proven his point. All I've proven is that such stupidity will not go ignored around me.



The same rights you are exhibiting right now are the rights they have equally right to. You can't grant protection for some and not for others. That's immoral. They may be wrong, but they have the same rights as you or I. If you want to change that, then you need to turn Canada into a Fascist country. I don't like it any more than you do. I would love to squash racism and make it go away, but I know that the law needs to be upheld for all.
And they are only doing what the people they used to oppress did to secure their rights. It wasn't that long ago that whites were trying to shut down blacks and blacks were voicing their right to Free Speech. It's just a reverse now.

Yes, but that's the thing. The oppressed did not smile and ignore it. They stood up and voiced their opinions. I do the same. Now, if it came to a physical confrontation, that's a different thing. But the fact remains the same: the oppressed did not ignore it. They said that this kind of thing will not be tolerated any longer.



One person cannot change the world on his or her own. The smile and walk away principle needs to be put through everyone. The problem is that people let things like this get to them every time. You can't do that. Live your life with a little more joy :P

Oh, I don't hold grudges. I correct them in that moment, then I forgive and forget. That's what proves that I'm not any lower than them. Besides, even if one person can't change the world, one of them can give it quite a shock. That person won't be me :D, but an individual does hold some potential power.



That's partially because I'm a god. I'm related to Zeus, but I'm not mean like he was. I'm on the nice side of his family.

Does that make Andy a cousin then? :O




And why am I being voted for?

:rolleyes: take a guess.

[carlyt]

I'd vote for Shaun for speaking clear and articulate common sense.

[Rafael Domination]

I'm communist. I vote for the people! POWER TO THE PEOPLE! LAND, BREAD AND PEACE!!!

Kidding. Yeah, Shaun's got some good points. I may not agree with all of them, but I know he's up for the betterment of others.

Riiiiiiiiiight, Shaun? ;)

[jordanisonfire]

Shaun, it seems to me (and I'll probably be wrong in this) that you're saying we should "lay down and die", in a way. But I'm not that kind of guy. I'm a retaliation and revenge sort of guy. I hold grudges, if it was something bad. If it was something like stealing a bit of my chocolate bar, I'd let that drop after a few minutes.

[Nyx]

There's really no such thing as average people when it comes to this. Some people simply choose to let words affect them. If someone calls me a bastard, I just shrug it off. It doesn't matter to me. It shouldn't matter to you either.

A) Just because it shouldn't, doesn't mean it doesn't.
B) Alright, so words we can ignore, but actions? What if one is treated differently based on their race? I.E. excluded, ignored.

And no I won't ignore words, I find that the saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me" one of the stupidest sayings ever. Of course words hurt. It hurts being judged based on skin colour, it hurts being excluded based on nationality. So ignoring IS saying it's alright to be racist, "because we can brush it off". But it's not alright, being racist isn't ok, it's not as easy as it is put on paper to "brush it off."



They tease people who won't protect themselves that REACT in the way they want them to. They react in ways that show that they are bothered. By ignoring and not letting what the bully says bother you, by smiling and laughing about it, you're proving you're better than the bully. Let the bully say whatever he or she wants. Doesn't matter. Bullies stop bugging people that aren't bothered by them. They only bully if you react.

A) Laughing is a reaction they want. It shows that a) the victim is uncomfortable. b) has no defense and CAN"T freaking protect themeselves. c) No by ignoring you're proving that the bully is right, since you have nothing to say against their racism, their racism must be just damn fine.

[Shaun]

A) Just because it shouldn't, doesn't mean it doesn't.
B) Alright, so words we can ignore, but actions? What if one is treated differently based on their race? I.E. excluded, ignored.

Which means it is YOUR problem that it bothers you, not their problem. You're giving them what they want.
Define action. How is the treatment different? Do some people just not want to hang out with you? Well you can't force people to want to hang out with you if they don't like you because of their race. That's violating their rights to not be around you. Just as you don't want to be around someone who is slaughtering cows (okay, that's a bad analogy, but do you understand what I mean by this? If you don't want to hang out with the milkman, you don't have to, technically, and someone who doesn't want to hang out with you because you glow in the dark...same thing).
But if we're talking about not hiring someone cause they glow in the dark, then that's illegal and the person will be punished for that. You can't do that. It's discrimination, and that's not allowed in any free society like America or Canada (sometimes people get away with it, because it's not easy to catch it...we don't have wiretaps everywhere). If you mean violence, then that is NOT acceptable at all. That's a hate crime. If you're talking about in school where you're not allowed to participate in the class because you're Jewish, that's discrimination (unless it's a private Catholic school and you don't participate in their Catholic rituals, which begs the question: why are you at a Catholic private school if you're Jewish?)

And no I won't ignore words, I find that the saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me" one of the stupidest sayings ever. Of course words hurt. It hurts being judged based on skin colour, it hurts being excluded based on nationality. So ignoring IS saying it's alright to be racist, "because we can brush it off". But it's not alright, being racist isn't ok, it's not as easy as it is put on paper to "brush it off."

By the word of law it is alright to be racist. They have every right to not like you because of your skin color. That doesn't mean it's morally right, but you can't force them to think differently. You can educate, you can show, but you can't force without violating the very freedoms you enjoy already.
And yes, it is just as easy as brushing it off. If you can't brush it all you'll become angry, upset, and just like them because you'll let what they saw bother you so much it'll drive you to do things you wouldn't have done before (maybe, I don't know, screaming at someone).
You have the right to not listen, you don't have to the right to be offended.



A) Laughing is a reaction they want. It shows that a) the victim is uncomfortable. b) has no defense and CAN"T freaking protect themeselves. c) No by ignoring you're proving that the bully is right, since you have nothing to say against their racism, their racism must be just damn fine.

Laughing pisses them off. I know. I've done it a lot. It drives them bonkers. Unless you're laughing in the wrong way, which is really hard to do. You can't get all upset and angry about everything. If we all did that we'd all be miserable because everything would upset us and we'd never smile. Smiling and enjoying life irritate them more than anything because they don't want you to enjoy life. They want you to react, show your weakness, and stoop down to their level. Going along with your life, paying them no heed, and showing yourself to be of higher culture makes them look upon themselves. They'll either make the realization one day that they are wrong, or they'll become bitter and angry and never change. You confronting them all the time will only make them bitter and angry because they'll have been right.
By ignoring you prove that the bully has nothing better to do than to waste his or her time spouting angry racist idiocy to someone that isn't offended by it. There's very little you can do anyway to prove to them that they are wrong. You try convincing someone that God doesn't exist. Have you tried? It's impossible. The same staunch mindset exists here, and except this racist ideal has very little to protect it; God has plenty of ammo. Racists aren't rational beings and trying to be rational and confront them hasn't worked and never will work. You'll be beating a drum that will never become dull with a mallet that never breaks.

[Nyx]

You can educate, you can show, but you can't force without violating the very freedoms you enjoy already.


But no one is educating. No one is telling kids that it's not moral to judge someone based on skin colour. And since that's fine by the law too, kids do it. And kids grow into adults. Adults who teach their kid that it's fine because no one stopped them as a kid, and neither did the law. So maybe that's what should change in the world. The education about this stuff.

[Rafael Domination]

You'll be beating a drum that will never become dull with a mallet that never breaks.



Ooh! I like that! :D

Ahem...

Anyways...

I don't really care if they stay racist or not. As we've all said a million times, they have to choose for themselves. But when they show it in public, and humiliate someone else as a result, that's what we have to first deal with.

[Shaun]

But no one is educating. No one is telling kids that it's not moral to judge someone based on skin colour. And since that's fine by the law too, kids do it. And kids grow into adults. Adults who teach their kid that it's fine because no one stopped them as a kid, and neither did the law. So maybe that's what should change in the world. The education about this stuff.

We do educate. That's what the law is. But you can't teach people what to believe at home. So, unless you want to violate personal rights and freedoms, you're sort of stuck with racism. Unless you do the ignore tactic, which would work if everyone did it. They'd lose face pretty quick and disappear.

[Rafael Domination]

Actually, like the more physical form of correction, the polite apporach doesn't have a 100% success rates. It will only affect the racists who succumb to silence. But there a lot of racists out there who won't, who will only take silence as more room to grow. What about them?

As I said, we should be flexible in dealing with these people. if education works on one specific person, use education on him/her. If silence works, use silence. If knocking that bastard out is the only thing that will work, we shouldn't hesitate. Dealing with the matter is what matters.

Now, back to the topic: when does discrimination cross the line? The moment you voice it out with the intention to hurt others, looking upon their flaws as some hideous mistake while you hide behinf your own mask of self righteousness. Anyone care to add to that? :D

[Shaun]

Actually, like the more physical form of correction, the polite apporach doesn't have a 100% success rates. It will only affect the racists who succumb to silence. But there a lot of racists out there who won't, who will only take silence as more room to grow. What about them?

As I said, we should be flexible in dealing with these people. if education works on one specific person, use education on him/her. If silence works, use silence. If knocking that bastard out is the only thing that will work, we shouldn't hesitate. Dealing with the matter is what matters.

Now, back to the topic: when does discrimination cross the line? The moment you voice it out with the intention to hurt others, looking upon their flaws as some hideous mistake while you hide behinf your own mask of self righteousness. Anyone care to add to that? :D

If you don't pay attention to them they have no audience. They only spout their hatred because they have ears tuned in.
And yes, we should hesitate to resort to violence. Violence didn't win blacks their rights. Contrary to popular belief, violence also didn't resort in the abolition of slavery. The Civil War wasn't about slavery. Dealing with the matter in a peaceful way is the only way that matters. This is why humans are doomed to failure. If we can't get over this knee-jerk reaction to constantly attack other people for having ignorant thoughts, then what makes us better than the animals?

Discrimination crosses the line when it violates someone else's rights. End of story.

[Rafael Domination]

If you don't pay attention to them they have no audience. They only spout their hatred because they have ears tuned in.


Some do, some don't. As I said, flexibility is a must when dealing with these people. I'd rather resort to ignoring them or reasoning, and sometimes it does work, but there are a few cases when the only success I saw was when someone personally silence their foul mouths. But yes, I see your point, and I acknowledge it for future encounters. I'll resort to more 'polite' ways first, but if they persist, then they 'brought the attack on themselves'.

[Shaun]

Some do, some don't. As I said, flexibility is a must when dealing with these people. I'd rather resort to ignoring them or reasoning, and sometimes it does work, but there are a few cases when the only success I saw was when someone personally silence their foul mouths. But yes, I see your point, and I acknowledge it for future encounters. I'll resort to more 'polite' ways first, but if they persist, then they 'brought the attack on themselves'.

Yes and every ATTACK you force on them is ammo they can use to make your life more difficult. The more you treat them with disdain, the more powerful they become.

[Nyx]

We do educate.
Where? Where does a kid seriously learn that it's not ok to judge by skin colour?


If you don't pay attention to them they have no audience. They only spout their hatred because they have ears tuned in.


Even if the victim ignores them, their audience doesn't.

[Shaun]

Where? Where does a kid seriously learn that it's not ok to judge by skin colour?

Through the law and punishment. Society has deemed it as "not OK". That becomes clear in the education when they talk about the abolition of slavery, etc. The law secures that racism is wrong as well. Beyond that, there isn't anything else you can do without violating the rights of individuals. You can't force them to take special classes, you can't force their parents not to instill their beliefs, etc.


Even if the victim ignores them, their audience doesn't.

Yup, which is exactly the problem. Everyone has to ignore it. But people react, get offended, throw fits, get violent, babble, talk, pay attention, etc. If you give hatred a voice and an audience it will grow and spread. So fix it.

[Rafael Domination]

Through the law and punishment. Society has deemed it as "not OK". That becomes clear in the education when they talk about the abolition of slavery, etc. The law secures that racism is wrong as well.


Thanks, that's all I needed to hear. As long as people don't turn a deaf ear to this issue and think of it as a passing fancy, I'll be just fine.

[Shaun]

Thanks, that's all I needed to hear. As long as people don't turn a deaf ear to this issue and think of it as a passing fancy, I'll be just fine.

Never ignore something if it is a serious issue. Me saying something racist is just me saying something racist. What I say is far different from what I do. If I do something racist (such as beat you up because you're purple or black or whatever), that's entirely different and you shouldn't ignore that at all. But if I just say "I don't like purple people and they smell", that's only hurting you if you let it. If you react to that, more people who have the same viewpoint will speak up and new people who didn't have it before will start to turn over.
Besides, when you ignore someone who is spewing hatred verbally, and treat it like it is a childish act (which it is), more people will view those people as quacks. Whenever someone spews hatred around me I laugh because I think it's hilarious how small minded people can be :P. And people generally look up on them in a similar manner, or they feel pity or sorrow for a "lost soul" :P.

[Chie'N'Kadath]

i am going to be speaking from the point of view of someone who has dealt with discrimination all her life. although i was born and raised for at least the first 7 years of life in Japan, I've lived the next 11 years in America. although I adjusted quickly, the family didnt. My sister Chiyaki never learned the English language, and she had to go to school with a translator, she was often mocked. the translator never told her about the insults until she asked, and by then, she had decided to leave and homeschool herself. i got less problems in high school, but in the elementary, i was not treated with respect at all. despite being Japanese & not Chinese, please excuse my use of the following word, my most common nickname was 'Chink girl.' i could go on and on. i learned to tolerate, but my parents did not. after 9 years in America, my parents packed up and left, taking me & Chiyaki with them.

i have dealt with discrimination both against myself and with my family, and so i have grown a distaste for it. i think that discrimination, by race, sex, sexual preference, age, and the like are wrong. i used to confuse discrimination with simple rudeness or playful teasing, however as i learned more what it really was, i did not like the facts it was happening. i still sometimes confuse teasing with discrimination, and unfortunately it does lead to some misunderstandings; i once punched Kadath in the nose for calling me his 'pretty Jap girl,' and then i began to yell out of anger because i never expected him to use such slang against me, although he argued back that he was just playing and didnt really mean harm, and of course i forgave him, although i still have a problem with derogatory words, for any race, gender, sexual preference, etc. sometimes i overreact a little, but either way, i do not approve of discrimination in any way. i have been hypocritical sometimes, i feel bad about the fact that i mocked many foreigners in Japan, saying they are idiots for not speaking the language or acting high and mighty, or even sometimes just saying they are idiots because they were foreign. that was a few years back though, and i dont plan to be a hypocrite again.

-Chie

[Shaun]

i am going to be speaking from the point of view of someone who has dealt with discrimination all her life. although i was born and raised for at least the first 7 years of life in Japan, I've lived the next 11 years in America. although I adjusted quickly, the family didnt. My sister Chiyaki never learned the English language, and she had to go to school with a translator, she was often mocked. the translator never told her about the insults until she asked, and by then, she had decided to leave and homeschool herself. i got less problems in high school, but in the elementary, i was not treated with respect at all. despite being Japanese & not Chinese, please excuse my use of the following word, my most common nickname was 'Chink girl.' i could go on and on. i learned to tolerate, but my parents did not. after 9 years in America, my parents packed up and left, taking me & Chiyaki with them.

i have dealt with discrimination both against myself and with my family, and so i have grown a distaste for it. i think that discrimination, by race, sex, sexual preference, age, and the like are wrong. i used to confuse discrimination with simple rudeness or playful teasing, however as i learned more what it really was, i did not like the facts it was happening. i still sometimes confuse teasing with discrimination, and unfortunately it does lead to some misunderstandings; i once punched Kadath in the nose for calling me his 'pretty Jap girl,' and then i began to yell out of anger because i never expected him to use such slang against me, although he argued back that he was just playing and didnt really mean harm, and of course i forgave him, although i still have a problem with derogatory words, for any race, gender, sexual preference, etc. sometimes i overreact a little, but either way, i do not approve of discrimination in any way. i have been hypocritical sometimes, i feel bad about the fact that i mocked many foreigners in Japan, saying they are idiots for not speaking the language or acting high and mighty, or even sometimes just saying they are idiots because they were foreign. that was a few years back though, and i dont plan to be a hypocrite again.

-Chie

May I ask where in the U.S. you lived? I'll be totally honest here, this doesn't sound like anywhere in American I have been. I would understand this behavior some 60 years ago, but in this day and age it makes very little sense. So where abouts were you?

[Chie'N'Kadath]

May I ask where in the U.S. you lived? I'll be totally honest here, this doesn't sound like anywhere in American I have been. I would understand this behavior some 60 years ago, but in this day and age it makes very little sense. So where abouts were you?

Utah. im back there now. yeah, it sounds like the way only people from the past would act, but what I can gather about Utahns, they are stuck there, especially with education, I haven't seen a text book from later than the 1920's.

[Shaun]

Hmm, Utah is considerably less progressive than the rest of the country. Try California :P

[Crocolyle]

California is considerably more progressive than the rest of the country. Honestly, sometimes the also-progressive East Coast is sent into a wave of panic. Not really. But seriously.

[Shaun]

Well I say Cali because she's of Asian descent and we have a huge Asian community here, so the likelihood of Chie experiencing the same behavior is slimmer. That's not usual American behavior, Chie. That's very unusual in a lot of the country.

[Chie'N'Kadath]

That's not usual American behavior, Chie. That's very unusual in a lot of the country.

thats good to hear, but then again it would be wrong of me to judge the entire country based on Utah alone.

Try California :P

i plan to someday, Kadath always rants about how its his 'second home' next to Britain, and he's always wanted to go back to California some day, but finances havent allowed it. now that we live together though, and hes getting a job, hopefully we wont experience poverty in this life due to handicaps (referencing the fact that he lived with his mother/grandmother who were both disabled and could no work, so they relied on welfare, and his father having like 8 kids to take care of couldnt afford child support for Kadath as well)

-Chie

[Shaun]

California is a really expensive state to live in. I don't know if I'll stay here forever, to be honest. I like parts of it, but I'm more of a rainy state person (Washington State is really nice, as I used to live there and loved the scenery...the people suck though). Anywho!

[Crocolyle]

I actually would like to live in California because of the relatively dry, warm coastal climate. Maryland is too humid for me, personally... though California culturally isn't Marylandish enough, so I don't think I could endure living there, despite the fresh produce, even if I had my own vineyard and olive grove. Though I mean, there are probably many great places to work there and stuff--lots of great reasons to live there. But the people there aren't Marylanders and aren't the people I currently know and love. I'd get homesick too quickly.

And California (from what I've read) has too many crazy people for my taste. California and Texas are the two places I could never live, because of the people.

[Shaun]

I think you have two very inaccurate interpretations of Californians and California in general. Most of California isn't a relatively dry, warm coastal climate. Very little of it actually is. It has one of the longest coasts, but it also has some the hottest and more abysmal climates too. I used to live out by Sacramento and the temperature used to get up into the 100-110 F range. Couple that with miles and miles of dead, disgusting grass, bur bushes, poison oak, rattlesnakes, few, if any, bodies of water within walking distance or an easy car ride, and lots and lots of concrete blasting that heat right back into you face (since most of the city is flat...and covered in black tar). It's horrible.
All those nice, 80-90 F, gentle breeze, happy nice coastal stuff is really only in a few areas: northern coast, central coast just below SF (it gets cold in SF, actually, and besides the culture and stuff there isn't a whole lot of great things about that city), and very little of the southern coast stuff is very nice. The best parts of Cali are in the northern stretches, to be honest. We have too much desert and too much horribly hot crappy valley here. Anything in the central valley blows, trust me...I lived there.

As for the people...there really aren't that many crazy people here. Just avoid LA. In all honesty we're nothing like Texas. There are just a few areas you don't go, but you sound like the type who wouldn't go to those kinds of places anyway, so it wouldn't be a problem. California gets played off like a weird hippy land, but really we're rather progressive, laid back, and well-rounded. Go to the northern coast. It's nice up there. I like it a lot and I'm from Washington...
Actually one of the things I was really happy about when I moved here was that people were surprisingly nice. Yes, there's mean folks here, but for the most part it's not so bad as in Washington. Washington is gorgeous, but the people suck.