Driver's Licenses for Illegal Immigrants: Yay or Nay?

[Shaun]

What do you all think about this particular subject. It keeps coming up and they've considered it in California and Barack Obama has it in his plan as President.

This applies to anyone from any country by the way. I know the UK has an immigration problem so, what are you thoughts?

[Nyx]

Why does it say immigrats instead of immigrants...:P

[Shaun]

Cause I'm an idiot...I'll fix it...

[Alex]

I don't agree with this. Until an illegal immigrant gets some form of legitimacy, I don't believe they can be given a priviledge of a certain country. I'm not completley against alloiwing illegal immigrants into the country, but we can't give them each and every right of the country, or else there would be no point to be a citizen, no more priviledges. If they want to try and make their way through the economy with lessened rights, if they are illegal, then I'm ok with it, but you cannot give them all the rights of a citizen, and this is just the first step.

[Imelda]

Damn. I could've got a license for driving on the wrong side of the road. :glare:

It's stupid.

[Shaun]

I agree, Alex. That's my position too. I personally have no problem with "LEGAL" immigrants. I actually like them. They are good for the economy and for society. They help keep things diverse and interesting. It's the illegals I'm concerned about and giving them the same rights afforded to me for being an American Citizen sort of takes all the value about of the word 'citizen'.

[Sofiel]

Wait a second. How did you guys become American citizens, though? Were you lucky enough to be born there? What about those who aren't lucky, and have to flee a country? They can't apply beforehand to become a legal immigrant, because the government or whoever is in charge will figure out and won't let them go. But let's just say they DO get out of the country, where else would they go but the 'land of the free'?

For every dangerous illegal immigrant there is an one that finds a minimum wage job, works hard and just tries to settle down. Now you want to revoke their driver's licenses so they cannot even go to work. For every little bit that you are improving border security, you are taking money from the poorest working people, the people who are here anyways, and preventing them from making a living.

(Just going to insert a WW quote in here, because the exact same thing happened in the show. Santos had the right of it when he said "We need to toughen our immigration laws, make our borders 50 times more secure. But if we're really willing to do that, it's wrong to punish the people we bring here to pick our avacados.")

[Shaun]

Illegal immigrants can't get driver's licenses and a driver's license has nothing to do with being able to work...I don't know where you got that idea. This is about giving them those licenses, which are privileges to citizens or legal residents only. We didn't bring them here to pick our fruit. They came here ILLEGALLY. Without permission. We didn't ask them to, we didn't give them permission, and we certainly did not make it legal. Illegal immigrant means exactly what the name implies.

And yes, because I'm "lucky enough" to be born here, I am legally able to enjoy the things this country has to offer and so does anyone else who goes through the proper channels.

And how am I preventing poor people from making a living? Another question might be: should we just let illegal immigration continue so all the drugs and drugs dealers and criminals can come on over? Not all of those immigrants are lovely dogooders. Some of them are very bad people.

[Sofiel]

I really don't know where I got that idea either. :P

Some of them are bad people, but just as they aren't all lovely do-gooders, they aren't all drug dealers and criminals. Perhaps they DID break the law by coming over, but they would have been denied access to enter the country if they applied for a visa. It isn't just criminals that are not allowed to enter, you know.

Whether you brought them here or not, they are here. They aren't just going to leave because they are not allowed drivers licenses. The drug dealers and criminals are not going to leave, and these kinds of people aren't JUST illegal immigrants either. Very bad people can be born in America, just as they can be born anywhere else. Saying that the immigrants are causing all the problems is addressing a very small part of the issue. Yes, we shouldn't allow illegal immigration to continue, I just don't think this is the way to stop it.

My mother and her family were chased out of Czechoslovakia by the soviets. They needed to get out fast, and get away. My grandfather wrote a book that contained some truths the soviets didn't want to face. My mother's family has a slight issue with keeping their mouths shut. My grandfather, for one, and his father before that, both angered the government.

I plan to ask them how they became legal immigrants in Canada, but are you saying they should have applied for a visa, waited for it to be accepted or denied, and THEN fled the country? Otherwise, they are considered criminals and shouldn't be respected or given rights? Otherwise, they are drug dealers? All of them are teachers, they didn't plan to kill anyone and they didn't plan to sell or do drugs. They just wanted to escape, to be free. If they HAD applied for a visa, they would have been turned down because of their 'record' with the soviet union.

As for work relating to drivers license, of course it does. Delivery people need cars to do their jobs, and most people need some form of transport to GET to work. Public transit doesn't work for everyone. What if they need to get somewhere out of the way, where buses and trains won't take you. Taxi's are expensive.

[Shaun]

Some of them are bad people, but just as they aren't all lovely do-gooders, they aren't all drug dealers and criminals. Perhaps they DID break the law by coming over, but they would have been denied access to enter the country if they applied for a visa. It isn't just criminals that are not allowed to enter, you know.

That's a misconception. If you aren't a criminal, you have all the right paperwork, you can get in. It just takes time. The system sucks, but they don't deny you entry. It's not like thousands of people have had their applications canceled. You just sit in limbo for a while. Yeah, it sucks, but that's the way it works right now.

Whether you brought them here or not, they are here. They aren't just going to leave because they are not allowed drivers licenses. The drug dealers and criminals are not going to leave, and these kinds of people aren't JUST illegal immigrants either. Very bad people can be born in America, just as they can be born anywhere else. Saying that the immigrants are causing all the problems is addressing a very small part of the issue. Yes, we shouldn't allow illegal immigration to continue, I just don't think this is the way to stop it.

That's not the point. We have enough problems with bad people that are legally in this country. We don't need bad people from other countries too, coming her illegally mind you. And granting them driver's licenses is actually condoning the behavior of illegal immigration by giving them something for their illegal activity. Driving is a privilege in this country granted to legal residents and citizens, not people who jump the border.

My mother and her family were chased out of Czechoslovakia by the soviets. They needed to get out fast, and get away. My grandfather wrote a book that contained some truths the soviets didn't want to face. My mother's family has a slight issue with keeping their mouths shut. My grandfather, for one, and his father before that, both angered the government.
I plan to ask them how they became legal immigrants in Canada, but are you saying they should have applied for a visa, waited for it to be accepted or denied, and THEN fled the country? Otherwise, they are considered criminals and shouldn't be respected or given rights? Otherwise, they are drug dealers? All of them are teachers, they didn't plan to kill anyone and they didn't plan to sell or do drugs. They just wanted to escape, to be free. If they HAD applied for a visa, they would have been turned down because of their 'record' with the soviet union.

Refugees are different than immigrants, and are supposed to be treated under different rules. The U.S. takes in a lot of refugees every year. What you seem to be talking about are refugees.
And it doesn't matter if an illegal immigrant decides to murder or do some horrible act, they are still breaking the law. End of story. If you steal a candy bar, you get in trouble, even though that act isn't all that bad. It's still illegal and should be dealt with accordingly.


As for work relating to drivers license, of course it does. Delivery people need cars to do their jobs, and most people need some form of transport to GET to work. Public transit doesn't work for everyone. What if they need to get somewhere out of the way, where buses and trains won't take you. Taxi's are expensive.

Yes, but delivery people tend to have a legal purpose in the U.S., with VISAs that allow them temporary access to U.S. soil to make the delivery. As a result, they are generally granted a form of driver's license for that specific purpose. They aren't illegal immigrants (for the most part).

[Sofiel]

Okay, I see your point.
I still don't agree, but I think your right... for now.

[Shaun]

This country was not founded on illegal immigration. That implies that there was a united, national government in place when we arrived, which there wasn't. There were many different governments governing different sections, with no clear borders. Illegal immigration now is not remotely the same as the immigration of Europeans and Whites after the discovery of America.

And you're right. I should also be able to just waltz into your house and take a shower too, right? I can just eat your food, even though I didn't pay for it. I can wear your clothes, take your TV, call long distance on your phone whenever I want, take your car for a spin even though I don't have a license or don't have insurance...

It's illegal. Illegal is illegal. If you want to ignore the fact that it is illegal, then we can't hold anyone accountable for any breaking of the law in this country.

And there are huge problems with giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. It is a privelege of being a citizen or a resident. We have to take standardized tests to get them, and our tests may not be the same as the tests in other countries. That and the DMV is a government organization and for such an organization to provide State Driver's Licenses to people who don't belong in the country in the first place is condoning illegal activity. You don't have to like the law, but without the law, we would have chaos. We have borders and rules on how immigration works. They suck, but that's the way it is. We can't let everyone in, because if we did that...none of us would have jobs.
People are hurt by illegal immigrants all the time. I've known people who lost their jobs to someone who didn't speak English and didn't have a Green Card. And that happens more often than you think.

[Shaun]

I am well aware there wasn't a united national government when we showed up. That's precisely what I'm saying. We arrived from all different regions and founded this country and built the government which we use now to keep out foreigners. And when we showed up we didn't exactly do it through the proper channels, we just arrived on boats and got rid of those "savages" that were already here. That's what I meant by this country was founded by illegal immigration. And these new foreigners aren't even mass slaughtering us proper citizens as we had done.

There were no "proper channels" back then. And it should occur to you that there are entirely logical reasons why we have rules about immigration in this country. If we just let everybody in it'd be impossible to keep track of anything. Taxes would be grossly misused, as they are now with illegal immigrants on welfare (which they shouldn't be) or going to emergency rooms for free healthcare that ends up being paid out of the state's taxes, i.e. our taxes, which aren't recooperated by illegal immigrants because they don't provide taxes to pay for public/government programs/services. Immigration is there to make sure we let in the right people as opposed to the wrong people, to make sure people coming in don't become burdens to the state, that they come to work, become productive members of our society, adapt as necessary, and integrate into American life. There are serious ramifications for proposing we just let them in and not worry about it. Right now we are seeing some of these ramifications.

I didn't say anything remotely similar to this annalogy, interesting though it was. I didn't realize that each country was a private house for the citizens already in it. If a person comes over here from another country they pay for their houses, their food, their clothes, and all other things. They don't just steal the stuff. This is the home of the free, people should be free to come over here from wherever they wish, if they pay their way, what's the harm?

The legal ones pay for taxes, the illegal ones don't. So they are essentially stealing from the state by going on welfare and getting free medical care while the rest of us, who are legal, who are born here and speak English, etc. get shafted. These people don't "pay their way". Paying your way is going through the proper avenues and coming her legally and then paying taxes on your income.

Some laws are unjust though. Look at the law itself, not just whether it's legal or illegal. Slavery was once perfectly legal. I'm not saying we should just throw out all laws or anything remotely similar, I'm just saying the law itself should be looked. Not just it's legalness.

Laws against illegal immigration are there as a means to control the traffic of people into this country and to make sure that our systems are not abused by people not paying into it. The law is meant to protect us, and that's what it is doing in this case.

I never said you just hand them a license or allow the license from another country to work here, of course they should take the same tests to obtain a license that we take here. If they pass those tests, they should be entitled to the right to have a license.

Good, and when they sign up, they should be picked up by INS and booted back over the border. Driver's licenses are priveleges provided to us for good behavior. It isn't a right. Illegal immigrants have not earned that right.

That is the fault of the person hiring, not the fault of the illegal immigrant. The illegal immigrant is simply trying to support his/her family and the person hiring is simply taking advantage of that. This has been going on for decades and does not relate to illegal immigrants alone. Any time someone is in a locked position and is willing to work cheaper than the other guy, there have been boss's that are there to take advantage of that.

Mmhmm, except these people shouldn't be here in the first place to take those jobs. It is the fault of the illegal immigrant because they know they can come over here and get work. And so they do. They made the decision to jump the border.

[Alex]

Shaun, I agree with you on the topic, but you are failing to adress something.

Suppose I live in Mexico right now, making 4$ an hour picking crops for some wealthy Panamanian who has set up shop in the Yucatan. I know that I can make the same money picking the same crops in America for 7$ and hour, beneficial is it not? (sure one of the big things people don't get is that its more expensive, its an afterthought, but that doesn't have a direct relation to what I'm trying to say...)

Next point - Lets say me, the Mexican crop picker who works for the Panamanian, decides to come to America. That being said I have a loose grasp of English from previous jobs working in Tijajuano selling shoes (this shouldn't be an issue, however, as America has no national language, therefore we can't force new immigrants to speak it. I would be all for adding it in, but its not my decision and currently it isn't there so currently we have no right to do that. I'm not insinuating you thought this because it appears nowhere in your argument, just a statement I want to throw out there).

So I am this - Crop Picker, Loose English, 29 Year Old, Mexican. - I go through all the necessary legal channels to apply for an American citizenship (I don't know or care, quite frankly, about the immigration processes. I know some dated practices from what my parents have told me, but no desire to care whether they are still in use or not...anyway) but get denied for something on a criminal history involving stealing some guys bag when I was 19.

I decide to take matters into my own hands and jump the border, and find this legendary crop grower who will actually offer me a magical 7$ per hour. There is no one currently filling that position as one of his many crop pickers, yet there is record high homelessness, is it not safe to assume that the homeless do not want these jobs, or at these prices.

Outside of cheap construction and cheap agriculture of some sort there isn't much the average illegal immigrant can do, but if the people who need jobs don't want these jobs what are we supposed to do? Force them to take the jobs? (if done correctly forcing them to wouldn't be the most horrible thing in the world, but it will never happen so its just useless babbling).

Thing about this... How many people are so desperate for money that they will go work on a farm picking crops (alot, I know... keep reading), but then not accept a salary of 5$ an hour because it is too much. This is not quite as much, but at least partly, our fault for not finding ways to getting out people into these jobs. I know a few people whose family members (brothers, cousins, sisters, w/e) have lost a job to lower pay, but the fact is that before the immigration crisis people didn't want these jobs and the industry was suffering. I understand in those situations a businessman is supposed to raise his wages, but if that is the case then in an industry determined solely by a small group of people who could keep saying they won't work until the prices are too high for the grower to even make a reasonable profit.

I agree with your argument, but nowhere in there is a solution. Keeping the immigrants out won't solve it, employment may crawl upward for a year or two and level off not even a % higher then it was before the problem was solved, and its because the fact is that no one wants these jobs. (or not enough people, anyway, to make such a large industry cost-effective).

I just realized the entire deal at the begining is kind of useless because I could've drawn the same conclusion without it, but oh well.

[Shaun]

Shaun, I agree with you on the topic, but you are failing to adress something.

Suppose I live in Mexico right now, making 4$ an hour picking crops for some wealthy Panamanian who has set up shop in the Yucatan. I know that I can make the same money picking the same crops in America for 7$ and hour, beneficial is it not? (sure one of the big things people don't get is that its more expensive, its an afterthought, but that doesn't have a direct relation to what I'm trying to say...)

They won't get $7 an hour. That would be almost minimum wage. They get paid pennies on the dollar here instead. And they pay no taxes on that money. Whereas an American would pay taxes on any wages earned (or they're supposed to).


Next point - Lets say me, the Mexican crop picker who works for the Panamanian, decides to come to America. That being said I have a loose grasp of English from previous jobs working in Tijajuano selling shoes (this shouldn't be an issue, however, as America has no national language, therefore we can't force new immigrants to speak it. I would be all for adding it in, but its not my decision and currently it isn't there so currently we have no right to do that. I'm not insinuating you thought this because it appears nowhere in your argument, just a statement I want to throw out there).

We have no "official" national language, but we are an English-language country. And yes, we can force immigrants to learn English as a requirement. And yes, if I own a business and someone comes to me who doesn't speak decent English, I won't hire them. I have no patience for dealing with people who don't bother learning the language.

So I am this - Crop Picker, Loose English, 29 Year Old, Mexican. - I go through all the necessary legal channels to apply for an American citizenship (I don't know or care, quite frankly, about the immigration processes. I know some dated practices from what my parents have told me, but no desire to care whether they are still in use or not...anyway) but get denied for something on a criminal history involving stealing some guys bag when I was 19.

Good, so our immigration system works in keeping the bad people out. Thanks for proving my point as to why we have immigrant screening.

I decide to take matters into my own hands and jump the border, and find this legendary crop grower who will actually offer me a magical 7$ per hour. There is no one currently filling that position as one of his many crop pickers, yet there is record high homelessness, is it not safe to assume that the homeless do not want these jobs, or at these prices.

Good, and when you get caught and booted back over the border, don't cry about it or try to make me feel sorry for it. Cause I won't feel sorry. You broke he law (twice, technically) and don't deserve the same freedoms and liberties as people who haven't broken the law.

Outside of cheap construction and cheap agriculture of some sort there isn't much the average illegal immigrant can do, but if the people who need jobs don't want these jobs what are we supposed to do? Force them to take the jobs? (if done correctly forcing them to wouldn't be the most horrible thing in the world, but it will never happen so its just useless babbling).

Actually, there are people who would take these jobs. The problem is that it is illegal to pay someone below minimum wage (unless it's freelance work) and farmers don't want to pay Americans that much moneybecause they'd have to raise their prices. People keep saying that nobody will work on the farms, but that's bullshit. I worked on a farm and I know loads of people who would do the same if they were paid minimum wage. We have Americans doing jobs worse than picking produce...like cleaning drains in New York City or the people who work on pig/cow farms who have to clean tons of crap out of cages every single day.

So, contrary to some ridiculous popular opinion, those jobs would be filled, and if you're so worrie,d then remove the child-labor act and allow kids to work on these farms for extra money. Kids can pick berries and pumpkins and crap.


Shaun, this is my current view in regards to the subject. In regards to the taxes being distrubuted/deducted incorrectly due to incorrect population information, I can understand this as a problem, and over population seems one as well. But the way you have it phrased still bothers me, as though illegal immigrants are evil doers on a rampage and the constant phrase "they shouldn't be here in the first place" seems a tad too harsh. I now agree with your views on this presenting a problem, but I do not agree with how you are making it seem as though they are purile bad people. They're simply trying to obtain a beter life in a better place. So in sum, I have come to agree with your view of Illigal Immigration presenting a problem, but I do not agree with your views of Illigal Immigrants themselves.

I have no respect for people that take advantage of my country, but make no effort to put back into the community. If you don't have respect for what America can offer, then go back over the border. They're obtaining a better life while stealing from us.

[Alex]

I understand they are breaking the law, and I agree with you, we should keep them out. But is it not also the crop grower's fault for hiring them in the first place. That is what I'm trying to say in the metaphorical cacophony of the last post.

[Shaun]

Of course it's their fault for hiring them, and those people should be punished for violating the law.

[Alex]

There we go, that is where I agree. Its kind of funny because punishing a business for doing something wrong is a more liberal concept, but democrats wouldn't do this, and republican economic theory doesn't agree with this so I guess this is a non-possibility unless some sort of Supreme Court decision comes.

[Shaun]

Democrats won't do it because they want power next term. Republicans won't do it because they want the same thing.

[mrfusspot]

I don't think any person that has to have the word "illegal" anywhere in their description shouldn't be entitled to the luxuries as the people that do not. I figure that the word illegal should imply that they are doing something wrong and thus should not be able to apply for social security or driver's licenses.