Religion and History: Let's End This One!

[Shaun]

Okay, so this subject has come up a lot, especially with Raf who admittedly is very passionate about it.
Should we hold religions accountable for the actions of their ancestors? Meaning, should Christians still 'pay' for what Christians 500 years ago did in the name of their religion? Or should religious folks hold their past in a certain regard?



My argument is this:
We shouldn't hold them accountable for what they did in the past no more than we should hold every single white man accountable for what they did to the Native Americans. Most of us are not evil murderers and most Christians really aren't oppressive demons :P.
What I do think has to happen is that religious folks don't deny that their religion has a shaky, violent past. This means just agreeing that what happened before does reflect on them now and it is important in context with what is going on today. What some religious people are doing today is not that different from what they were doing 500 years ago.

What do you think?

[jordanisonfire]

Religion is the biggest causer of wars, yet I believe people are entitled to their own, no matter how far-fetched or crazy it may be. But, I don't like them not admitting that their religions may have caused one or two stirs in the past...

[Rafael Domination]

Well, now that Shaun has managed to clarify his thoughts, I agree. The mistakes in the past should be avoided.

[Shaun]

Raf, just to be clear, I am in no way against you believing what you believe and I have never at any point thought you were some evil Christian running around enslaving blacks, killing 'witches', etc. I know you're not. I'm only against the use of religion for evil, which sadly, happens a lot, and is happening today.

Would you say, Raf, that to avoid the past, one has to acknowledge that your religion was involved? I understand you're of a different sect, but the skeletal structure of your sect is still the same as way back when, so you're not at fault, but you certainly have a past. So, I dunno, I'm just trying to spark a sort of discussion of religious history.

[jordanisonfire]

What's all this about Raf's religion? :confused:

[Shaun]

He and I disagreed on some points before and I think some of it was a misunderstanding between both of us. :P

[jordanisonfire]

Ah... I'll just... leave, then.

[Rafael Domination]

Well...my sect states:

1) Separation of Church and state
2) Free will of the people to beleive
3) Salvation throught God's grace, not of works
4) No meditator between God and Man
5) Something about sticking to what the Bible says.
(There's more, but I forget...)

...so, the skeletal structure really doesn't tie in with what happened in the past, cuz' our Declaration of Faith prevents any form of violence (thou shalt not kill) or using religion as a way to bring in money (in Acts, someone died cuz' of that), etc.

And I agree with the fact that some Christians are over-doing it. God just told us to do our part, not play God by ordering people what to do. We can try to advise them, but we cannot ram things down their throat. We also can't think of ourselves any higher than others, cuz' if I recall, most of us were just as bad (or even worse in my case) before we chose God.

I also agree that my sect has a past, and we Baptists try to avoid doing anything that can make people point at us and say we're doing what the blood-thirsty Christians are doing. And, well. sinc my sect wasn't delcared offically a sect until the 1600's, we really haven't had much of a chance to mess up or be involved with any bloodshed.

So, yeah...glad you're being clear :D

Edit: wow...I'm a slow poster...

[jordanisonfire]

Sounds reasonable enough, Rif-Raf.

[Rafael Domination]

Rif-Raf :D

I like it!

[jordanisonfire]

I knew you would, Riffter. :P Naw, I'll stick with Rif-Raf.

[Nyx]

Rif-Raff is my new favorite name

[Shaun]

Okay, back to the discussion!

[Sofiel]

This probably has nothing to do with what you guys are talking about..
But the Christian belief of 'loving thy enemy' is really ridicules, how can you talk about loving someone you are killing/hurting/surpressing/whatever? Humbert Wolf described this one perfectly :

Like a small grey
coffee-pot,
sits the squirrel.
He is not

all he should be,
kills by dozens
trees, and eats
his red-brown cousins.

The keeper on the
other hand,
who shot him, is
a Christian, and

loves his enemies,
which shows
the squirrel was not
one of those.

-- Humbert Wolfe
It was a discussion about religious beliefs, just thought I should add that in. :P

[Rafael Domination]

I know it seems ridiculous, and as a Christian myself, I'm tempted not to love my enemies. Why should I? All they've done is plague me. As a matter of fact, they're the ones who don't even want me to exist as a Christian. Maybe I should not want them to exist as a atheist or whatever. But the thing is...that would only lower me to their level. I have a direct order from God not to hate them, and so, I must. Therefore, if someone I knew hated Christians were in trouble, I wouldn't hesitate to help. It's the right thing to do. There's too much hating in the world nowadays, and as such, I doubt Christians should join in that. I'm not saying, before any of you start, that all Christians love their enemies. There are a few people (Bin Laden) that I would love to see dead, or worse. But that's only human, and do I encourage it? No. But do I think loving someone is better? Yes. Besides, the idea of 'Loving thy Enemy' is for the Christian in the sense that even is someone persecutes declared that Christian an enemy (hence the status of enemy), that Christian should not retaliate because he/she 'loves' that person (even if he/she is an enemy). The idea of hurting/killing/surpressing shouldn't even be a thing for a true Christian to do. If they do, then that's not what God wants, and that 'Christian' needs to take a chill pill (or go to jail if he/she has murdered. Not kill. That's too light of a word. If a Christian kills another person, it is murder, and nothing less) and go read his/he Bible in a corner. No where in the New Testament does it tell a Christian to do what Old Testament Christians are doing in terms of spreading their religion. In fact, we're not ordered to go and 'surpress' others anymore. The orders have changed from 'Eliminate the Amalek' to 'Spread the Good News of Salvation'...and anything else is a definite no-no, and hating someone is not the way to go. However, hating their sin, which is all right, since sin isn't a sentient human being, doesn't count as physcial harm or discrimination. I can say I hate murder, and I will keep a distance from murderers. But to persecute them for murder - God hasn't granted me that right, and anyone who usurps that is making a mistake. I will not say, that I have never disliked murderers, and will never be suspicious of them, especially the ones what won't ever change. But that's not the same as hating. If I was ever given the chance to shoot them and get away with it, I will not take it. It's all about common sense and balance. Although I wouldn't necessarily give some anti-Christian atheist a hug and say I love you, I would still smile and say have a nice day even if they do swear at me for being trying to invite them for one Sunday Service. Is that so wrong? Is it wrong to be kind to those who are unkind to you? Is it even impossible? Is it ridiculous? I don't think so. ^^

*Takes a breath*

It might seem ridiculous to a lot of people, but guess what? It's what Christians should do, and if they're going to be hated for that, then so be it.

[Sofiel]

No where in the New Testament does it tell a Christian to do what Old Testament Christians are doing in terms of spreading their religion. In fact, we're not ordered to go and 'surpress' others anymore. The orders have changed from 'Eliminate the Amalek' to 'Spread the Good News of Salvation'...and anything else is a definite no-no, and hating someone is not the way to go.

Okay, so my parents have pretty much done all they can to ... I wouldn't say eliminate religion in my sister and I, but to discourage it. Sure, we go to the JCC to play tennis and I sing at the Anglican church across the street, but they try not to acknowledge those people's beliefs. I would normally Google this, but since we seem to have an expert... could I possibly get the story behind the Old Testament - New Testament thing?

It might seem ridiculous to a lot of people, but guess what? It's what Christians should do, and if they're going to be hated for that, then so be it.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying I hate Christians. Most of my best friends are Christians, I'm just saying I don't understand all of their beliefs, such as the 'Love Thy Enemy' one :)

[Zombified]

Old Testament God was a dick!
This was before he had his son. And man, before he had that kid, he was insane!
He flooded the Earth and made Noah build that arc.
He appeared as a burning bush to Moses.
He made Moses walk through deserts and help all his people because he thought that God, his loving master would let him into Heaven.
All the things he did, he did for God.
And what does God do when it is time for Moses to go to Heaven?

"Sorry, Moe! You aint getting in! Bahahahaha! Kiss my ass!"
Does that sound like a nice God?
Think about it! All the crazy shit God did before he had Jesus is in the Old Testament.
That God would throw lightening bolts at you if you crossed him!

I mean come on. I read a story where this Jewish man had a huge family, had lots of money, was just very happy and he thanked God everday for his things. Then one day, Satan said to God, he only worships you because you give him things.
God said, "No! Watch, if I take all that away, he will still worship me! Watch!"

He freaking had a huge storm kill the dudes family, had a bunch of wolves kill his livestock which resulted in him losing his money. He then gave the dude measles or some other kind of disease as well.
And you know why he did all that?
JUST TO PROVE A FREAKING POINT!
Tell me that he is not insane.
You know you cant.

The New Testament God is way more laid back.
After he had Jesus he chilled out. He said, "Fuck this! I am too damn old to be doing this shit".
And now he never pokes his head out.
He just drinks lemonade by the pool everyday and says, "I aint getting involved down there."

And that is my stance on religion.
:D

[Rafael Domination]

Okay, so my parents have pretty much done all they can to ... I wouldn't say eliminate religion in my sister and I, but to discourage it. Sure, we go to the JCC to play tennis and I sing at the Anglican church across the street, but they try not to acknowledge those people's beliefs. I would normally Google this, but since we seem to have an expert... could I possibly get the story behind the Old Testament - New Testament thing?

Old Testament: God manifests himself as Jehovah, and more of a Judge and not yet a Savior. Cause and effect - if someone messes up, he/she has to be punished, and often, even God's people felt his just Wrath if they sinned. But thousands of years before Christ, he already promised a lot of times to send someone that would change everything.

New Testament: Jesus arrives are rearranges a lot of rules set in the Old Testament. He also reveals that God set those harsh rules (kill everything wicked; e.g. Jericho) because God works with humans as they are, but now that Jesus has come to sacrifice himself to pay for everyones sins, a few things have got to change. For example, the Old Laws says that 'Eye for an Eye'. Now, the new law that Christians should obey is 'Turn the Other Cheek'. Now, Christians shouldn't be here to be judges and soldiers: their new mission is to be ambassadors and spread the good news of Jesus' payment in the hopes that others might accept that transaction. The sin debt has already been paid - people just have to take the receipt. Christians playing judge and jury are out of line, and need to simmer down a bit.


Just to be clear, I'm not saying I hate Christians. Most of my best friends are Christians, I'm just saying I don't understand all of their beliefs, such as the 'Love Thy Enemy' one :)

I see. I'm a Christian and I'm also saying that I don't understand a lot of my beliefs. I mean, why this? Why would God do that? Why would God say this? So, I look it up in the Bible and find the answers in the pages and/or ask my Pastor about it. I don't get why God would tell us to love my Enemy: but I know that it usually results in less conflict, less stress, less pain - so that must be ONE of the reasons why. If I don't retaliate, my enemy won't hit back, and I can prevent a whole busload of trouble. Of course, if my enemy wants to kill me, I'll definitely fight back. Jesus said to turn the other cheek. I'm willing to turn my left and right cheek, and even both butt-cheeks if possible, but once I run out of cheeks, it's only natural for people to snap. But yeah...'Love thy Enemy' has got more to do with 'Turn the Other Cheek'

Yeah...see! THIS is how a debate should go! Both side talking to each other in civilized manners. I know our opinions differ, but we can all be civil about it. (Sorry. I just had to gloat. I've been on some sites where the moment you come up with something against popular opinion, they tear you to pieces without any civility! :D)

[Shaun]

The best way to learn about how they are supposed to believe is to read the Bible. The best way to see how they actually enact those beliefs is to watch them and pay attention. You'll learn there are lots of moron Christians who go around doing horrible things and dispensing hatred at the expense of the lives of others and then there are nice Christians who actually do pass around hugs, and then there are folks like Raf who are nice, but sit in the middle and generally keep to themselves. The last two are the good kinds, the first kind are the ones making policy in this country :P.

[Rafael Domination]

Aw...thanks, Shaun. :D

Yeah, I have my beliefs, and they are firm. But the last thing you're going to see me do is force them on anyone, and/or hate others for not believing them. There's nothing wrong with spreading the good news - but when it's spread via sword and hammer, then forget it. There's no blessing in that. That's what I've always been taught.

But I admit: I'm still human...and I mess up sometimes (Aw come on? If I was perfect, Azrael wouldn't exist. It'd just be Michael! :crazy:)

Anyways...Religion and History...

What can people say about the OTHER ones. What about the Aztecs? I'm glad I don't need to have my heart ripped out and my blood splashed all over the church walls to be a faithful believer! :lol:

(Next SBS, I call that Round if I win. Aztec Temple Surival by Suicde. Yes. That's mine.)

[Shaun]

The thing about faith is that if you're a firm believer, things like human sacrifice (if that exists in your religion) don't seem odd or wrong. People didn't consider the Crusades wrong for a good long while (well, at least the Church didn't at the time), and there are plenty of other things that people of faith (even non-religious faith) have done that are horrible, yet to them seemed natural. Humans are just bizarre critters.

[Rafael Domination]

Humans are just bizarre critters.

Haha! Yeah. Did you know that we're the only creatures that naturally drink milk AFTER the age of infancy. (Cat's don't drink mild naturally. If they do, as adults, it's actualy not good for them).

Yeah. Humans are so very interesting! :D

[Shaun]

That's kind of true. In a sense, yes, it is true that the only ones that continue to drink milk after adulthood, but it's not natural to us just as it isn't for a cat. We go out of our way to drink milk, just as a cat would too.

[Rafael Domination]

We're also the only species with the potential ability to direct out own 'evolution'. Of course, I don't believe in it, but scientist have already begun projects on how to snip genes, make chimera animals, and now they're researching on how the could turn some unwanted genes off, and some desireable genes on. I mean, for example, if someone has a growth problem, scientists hope to gain the ability to flick on that person's cells that regulate and produce growth hormone. Do I think it's ethical? I don't know. I don't have all the answers! :D

[Shaun]

I think it only becomes unethical when we start doing things that a purely unnatural. Like genetically altering people to be deaf or to be super soldiers. We have to be very careful how we deal with genetic manipulation in the future.

Anywho.

[Mercy]

The religion, in itself, is not the cause. It's the people that use the cover of religion. People who want power will milk the concept of religion for all it's worth. When someone says they are doing something in the name of religion, they are doing it for themselves; they know they can get followers by using religion and that it makes their cause seem just. Espically if they are persecuting "evil" witches or demons or whatever they are killing.

Religion can be twisted around to fit people's needs. For example, if someone on a murder trial said that God told him to kill a person, would you honestly believe him? No, you'd think he's crazy, God doesn't talk to people (often). There is a good chance he's trying to get out of prison and the death penalty, maybe get into an insane asylum and "recover". Either that or he's actually insane.

[Alex]

I have always been a very religious person, but lately I've had my doubts. Maybe its just teenage adolescents, but there are some things I can't agree with. I'm Romanian Orthodox ((the 12, I think it was 12, different types of Orthodox Christianity are all almost exactly the same, just based in different regions)). That obviously means I am not Catholic, that being said they are still Christians, just like me, and they did horrible horrible thing, no one is denying that.

I don't like the sentiment that Christians are the 'victims'. We are one of the least discriminated religions out there. Yes, there are people that hate 'Christianity', but generally they hate religious establishment. Its an incredibley cheap sympathy, thats disgusting quite frankly, when you consider the discrimination of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists ((ok, fine... not as much here)), and chiefly, Jews.

The second is that we have to 'spread the word of God'. I like the fact that the classic denominations ((Orthodoxy, Catholocism, and Anglocanism)) minimize this, but, for example, the emphasis put on this by Southern Baptists is ridiculous. I'm all for doing community service work in a war-torn or empoverished area of the world, but giving them all Bibles and preaching to them that if they believe in this 'force' they've never heard of they will eventually escape the pain they currently endure? If they don't go through explaining every religion I feel its coming from a biased point of view, and should not be 'taught' to someone, as truth, if they are uneducated of anything else. Thats not fair to them, it takes away choice. You could say the choice exists to denounce these 'farces' but if I was starving in Africa, taking care of my 6 siblings at the age of 13, I would sure as hell beleive in God if someone told me he could help me.

I don't really know what I am, I guess. Am I bitter? yes... do I consider myself a Christian? yes... I guess I still do, but that being said, like Lyle said, there can be no tangent proof of a God, or of any force at all, so it all comes down to faith ((no matter the religion or denomination)).

[Rafael Domination]

To the two above points, yeah, I see some of your points. But that's part of the test as Jesus already said. I recall a verse that states (and I'll paraphrase here) that those who have NOT seen and believed are more blessed than those who have seen and believed. But yeah, it's mostly faith. But whose to say faith can't yield tangible results?

And as for explaining all other religions, yeah, we've done that, to the extent that the Bible allows us to. But we don't forget the verse that states 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh (to) the Father but by me'. Another paraphrase, but it's valid.

I am a Baptist, and, we don't go picking on other religions, but we have a firm line drawn. As a matter of fact, I've never really heard of any Baptists gathering and organizing a genocide or anything of any sort. We also stress the fact that the Bible says people have the freedom of will to choose. It just ticks me off when people cowardly hide behind the fact that Israel massacred a few cities in Mosaic times. They don't seem to know the fact that God gave them 400 years to stop sacrificing children, among other hideous sins. I believe in 'longsuffering' and quick forgiveness and distancing yourself from discriminating and hypocritical judgement, but I also believe in justice, caution and using common sense.

As for the starving kids in Africa thing, there's a verse in the Bible that states Faith without works is dead. It's useless for someone to say to a starving man 'peace be with you' and just leave him there. The Bible also states that Charity is the greatest Virtue. So, Christians should also take it upon themselves to help with peoples material NEEDS (note, not LUSTS) as well, to the extent that they can.

It's funny that the Bible has a counter for everything people throw at it. Also, Christianity is the only religion that says DONE, and not DO. At least, that's what Jesus wanted. He didn't intend for us to say, you HAVE to give money to the church, do this, do that, hurt this person if they don't believe to go to heaven. All he told us is to spread the Good News of the FREE Gift of Salvation. That's true Christianity, and twisting it to fulfill greed or discrimination is abomination in God's eyes.

I think I should stop preaching. :D

[Alex]

And as for explaining all other religions, yeah, we've done that, to the extent that the Bible allows us to. But we don't forget the verse that states 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh (to) the Father but by me'. Another paraphrase, but it's valid.

I am a Baptist, and, we don't go picking on other religions, but we have a firm line drawn. As a matter of fact, I've never really heard of any Baptists gathering and organizing a genocide or anything of any sort. We also stress the fact that the Bible says people have the freedom of will to choose. It just ticks me off when people cowardly hide behind the fact that Israel massacred a few cities in Mosaic times. They don't seem to know the fact that God gave them 400 years to stop sacrificing children, among other hideous sins. I believe in 'longsuffering' and quick forgiveness and distancing yourself from discriminating and hypocritical judgement, but I also believe in justice, caution and using common sense.

As for the starving kids in Africa thing, there's a verse in the Bible that states Faith without works is dead. It's useless for someone to say to a starving man 'peace be with you' and just leave him there. The Bible also states that Charity is the greatest Virtue. So, Christians should also take it upon themselves to help with peoples material NEEDS (note, not LUSTS) as well, to the extent that they can.

It's funny that the Bible has a counter for everything people throw at it. Also, Christianity is the only religion that says DONE, and not DO. At least, that's what Jesus wanted. He didn't intend for us to say, you HAVE to give money to the church, do this, do that, hurt this person if they don't believe to go to heaven. All he told us is to spread the Good News of the FREE Gift of Salvation. That's true Christianity, and twisting it to fulfill greed or discrimination is abomination in God's eyes.

I think I should stop preaching. :D

Sorry im pressed for time so I am going to do this as quick as I can =p

1st Paragraph - still, sure verses are in the Bible that say the Bible is the ' true' document, I never denied that. The fact is, though, that almost all other books of Scripture ((Buddhism a little less)) say the same thing supporting their religion. Saying that 'my book says its true' isn't sufficient " knowlege". Typically people who do go and do charity are fairly well off and intelligent, and should at least have a basic understanding of theology to explain to them all the conventional options. I never said they left, doesnt that contradict my statement of 'charity?'. Still, as a Christian it is in our best interest to do good deeds, so after we do the good deeds ((charity, donations, etc.)) shouldn't we educate them. Is it that hard to tell them about the four major religions ((you could throw Judaism there as well. but Judaism is typically a much harder religion to convert to))? After that explain why Chistianity is best: if it truly is these theologists should have little to no difficult explaining ((this was not meant as a condemnation, no one take it that way)).

2nd Paragrah - I never said you did pick on other religions, but more than any major denomination the idea is 'preach, preach, preach', and just like every religion and every sect their are extremists. I feel its up for people who are educated to make their own decisions, I feel its within our rights of free speech, I just don't like the idea of pushing ideas on people. Thats why I feel theology should be taught at public schools, but that is a different topic. I also didn't say I associated any denominations with any sort of murderous act ((Catholocism is a slightly different story)).

3rd Paragraph - Pretty much covered along with the first... I just wanted to add that I never said Christians give charity through peoples lusts, I never even implied that, and the fact that you are specificly bringing up the difference is what I mean. I never flamed any religion or denomintion, for that fact, yet I see you've taken a defensive stance. What did I write in my above post that offended you to the point you are taking a defensive stance in, what should be, a fairly friendly topic. We are both Christians after all.

4th Paragraph - I find it funny how you said the Bible doesn't say to 'do' anything, but two sentences later you say all that Jesus wanted us to do was preach. Also, that can be taken as context for the times. At that time no one knew about Christianity, what Christians believed in, so on and so forth. Why is that in effect today when the majority of people outside of third world countries know what Christianity is. Again, did I ever throw anything at the Bible, I mean maybe I threw a rock at it once to see if I would be struck down by lightning ((joke joke joke no one take this out of hand it was a joke)), but again... I never really bashed the Bible.

While I don't believe the Bible stands up to every question it gets thrown out it, no scripture does, so I'm not condemning it for that. I was going to write a hole long spheal about how an extremist pastor once told me I wasn't going to heaven because I wasn't baptists ((its funnier than it is condeming, every religion has extremists, I know that)) and his daughter told me I wasn't a Christian for not going to a church where people dance and sing.

[Mercy]

My point was that it wasn't the religion or Bible that was at fault. It was people who took things into their own hands and used the material selfishly. x3

[Alex]

Yes, but looking at things that way, Mercy, condemns all Catholics unfairly. In fact it was only a few bad Roman leaders who deceived all the people. People think of all Catholics in the 7th century on as horrible, savage people and its not the case. No religious book was written until Dante Aliguerri's ((sp?) Divine Comedy which was written in the language of the commoners. All the peasents had to go on was the Pope's orders, and the traditions were formed that to enter confessional you would have to pay depending on the severity of the crime ((I can't remember the exact term given to this practice)), the witch burnings for anyone with pagan ((or in these times any differing)) beliefs, and of course the ruthless crusades which gave Jews the stereotypical bad names they have now. That being said, all these peasents are Christian from birth, but they themselves were not aloud to read the Bible; therefore they had nothing else to do but listen to the Pope ((who would then go ahead and make radical claims of what the Bible said)).

It was a select few group of Catholic 'higher-ups' in that time that lead to the now harmful stereotype that Catholics are blah blah blah this and blah blah blah that. Now, whenever I say this argument, for some reason people believe I am Catholic. I am not Catholic, I have only one grandfather who I never met who was Catholic, I don't support what they did, and I'm tired to defending this fact so I'll leave it with the words yada, yada, yada.... and yes I believe in seperation of church and state if anybody asks.

Thats why I don't believe you can entirely blame the catholic people either, because they are not ENITRELY to blame, and people who consider Catholocism, Orthodoxy, and ((to a degree)) Anglocanism as 'different' religions than most denominational Christianity they are ignorant ((I'm not accusing anyone, just saying, because that is my biggest peeve with religion, quite frankly)).

[Rafael Domination]

Actually, Alex, that pastor that told you you couldn't go to heaven is adding to God's word, and is so, gonna be in a loooooooot of trouble when he gets to Heaven. Look, the Bible says (and yes, it DOES have a counter to everything) 'Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. It didn't say 'If you are Baptist and call upon the name Lord you shall be saved'. I'm Baptist, and I'm calling what that pastor told you manure.

And about preaching the good news, that was command given to us. And we should do it, but doing any more than that, and we're stepping over a line. It's not our place to tell people 'Your religion is crap'. That may be true, but that's their job once they see the Free Gifts Christianity offers. It's not about 'DO THIS' anymore. Jesus couldn't have said it any better. 'IT IS DONE'. Paid in full. We just have to get the 'receipt' from Him if we are ever going to go through the pearly gates.

My pastor told me that other denominations of Christianity can get Saved, as long as they do it the way the Bible says so. I know Pentecostals who accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour. The only difference is they believe they can LOSE Salvation. That is impossible. We can do nothing to gain Salvation, we can't do anything to lose it, either. That's no excuse to go around doing whatever we want, though. The Bible has another counter for that in Hebrews. It said that once a child of God, he will 'spank' his children for being naughty, and he might just bring us to Heaven early rather than have us ruin others. I knew this Christian who did drug dealing over the border. I believe it was his chopper that crashed.

Anyways, I agree with Mercy's statement. It's people who are the true criminals. As usual. It's like TW (the old writing site I used to go to). It was pretty dang good, until rather unlikable people (you guys know who you are. Lord bless your souls. ^^) started polluting the place and half the mods didn't even care. Do I blame the site? No, TW itself is a great place, and I don't think its reputation should suffer cuz' of a few societal rejects.

It was a select few group of Catholic 'higher-ups' in that time that lead to the now harmful stereotype that Catholics are blah blah blah this and blah blah blah that.

I've been trying to tell Shaun that before. I think we all know that now. See, the Bible never wanted a Church Empire in the first place. In Ecclesiastes, the churches were supposed to be separate. That way, if there is a bad egg of a Church Leader, other churches and other members aren't caught up in blind obedience to their church leader. In fact, our pastor has to be the most accountable person in the whole church. He goes by the verse in the Bible 'abstain from all appearances of evil' so much that he starts to shame me, and irritate me a little for being too conservative. But I know that's a great principal to follow.

No Christian is perfect. God told us straight up that once we think that way, He'll be there to squish that thought. We're JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. We screw up. We give into sin. I do. Which is a reason why any 'christian' judging you for any reason needs a good boot up the leg. (Obviously there are exceptions. If you're in court, people do have to judge others).

[Zayuh]

Just popping in here, this is a good debate. Heres something ive been thinking about lately.
Im Christian, yeah, but there seems to be a bit of a problem. You see, it says that whoever worships another god will be damned to burn in hell for eternity. My first point: Could the Christians be using that as a way to lure in more to their religion? Making people force themselves to believe just in case that that firey future actually comes to them? Really, forcing yourself to believe out of fear isnt belief at all.

My second point: Say, the buddhists for example, worship Buddha, but not our god. The buddhists, in my opinion, should not have to burn in hell for this, for they are much better people than most christians. For example, buddhists didn't use to go out and kill anyone that wasnt buddhist, unlike the so called 'holy' Christian Templars. In my dictionary, this is part of the definition of Knight Templar: The order grew wealthy and influential from banking activities before being suppressed by the Pope in 1312.

Im some 12 year old, and thats my word.

[Rafael Domination]

Actually, once their reach the age of accountability, EVERYONE is Lost and going to Hell. And there is no way we can pay for our sins ourselves. That's when Jesus comes in. It doesn't matter if I'm a Baptist and I haven't accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I'm just Christian by title, and there are a lot of those out there. The thing is, if a Buddhist comes to accept Jesus as the only way, the truth, and the key to Heaven, even if he or she does go back to being a Buddhist, they're only Buddhist by title, and God will keep prodding them back to Christianity. And the Bible as another counter for the Buddhist being better people. The Bible says it doesn't matter. ALL OUR WORKS ARE AS FILTHY RAGS in God's sight. We can be the World's Best Saint, and that is useless to get us to heaven. We can be under any banner of Christianity and be better than Buddhists, but without Jesus' Blood covering us, it's useless as well.

And those Templars are again, Christians only by title. What sort of Christian goes around pillaging villages, raping women, killing children. No wonder they lost the Crusades. God wasn't with them. What they were doing is in direct violation of New Testament Policies, Section Matthew to Romans. ^^

[Alex]

Actually, Alex, that pastor that told you you couldn't go to heaven is adding to God's word, and is so, gonna be in a loooooooot of trouble when he gets to Heaven. Look, the Bible says (and yes, it DOES have a counter to everything) 'Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. It didn't say 'If you are Baptist and call upon the name Lord you shall be saved'. I'm Baptist, and I'm calling what that pastor told you manure.

And about preaching the good news, that was command given to us. And we should do it, but doing any more than that, and we're stepping over a line. It's not our place to tell people 'Your religion is crap'. That may be true, but that's their job once they see the Free Gifts Christianity offers. It's not about 'DO THIS' anymore. Jesus couldn't have said it any better. 'IT IS DONE'. Paid in full. We just have to get the 'receipt' from Him if we are ever going to go through the pearly gates.

My pastor told me that other denominations of Christianity can get Saved, as long as they do it the way the Bible says so. I know Pentecostals who accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour. The only difference is they believe they can LOSE Salvation. That is impossible. We can do nothing to gain Salvation, we can't do anything to lose it, either. That's no excuse to go around doing whatever we want, though. The Bible has another counter for that in Hebrews. It said that once a child of God, he will 'spank' his children for being naughty, and he might just bring us to Heaven early rather than have us ruin others. I knew this Christian who did drug dealing over the border. I believe it was his chopper that crashed.

Anyways, I agree with Mercy's statement. It's people who are the true criminals. As usual. It's like TW (the old writing site I used to go to). It was pretty dang good, until rather unlikable people (you guys know who you are. Lord bless your souls. ^^) started polluting the place and half the mods didn't even care. Do I blame the site? No, TW itself is a great place, and I don't think its reputation should suffer cuz' of a few societal rejects.



I've been trying to tell Shaun that before. I think we all know that now. See, the Bible never wanted a Church Empire in the first place. In Ecclesiastes, the churches were supposed to be separate. That way, if there is a bad egg of a Church Leader, other churches and other members aren't caught up in blind obedience to their church leader. In fact, our pastor has to be the most accountable person in the whole church. He goes by the verse in the Bible 'abstain from all appearances of evil' so much that he starts to shame me, and irritate me a little for being too conservative. But I know that's a great principal to follow.

No Christian is perfect. God told us straight up that once we think that way, He'll be there to squish that thought. We're JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. We screw up. We give into sin. I do. Which is a reason why any 'christian' judging you for any reason needs a good boot up the leg. (Obviously there are exceptions. If you're in court, people do have to judge others).

Again, I never said this was my view on baptists. Hell, I live in the south-eastern United States, my two best friends are devout baptists, I have nothing against them, I'm just saying that with every religion comes extremists. Again, I actually found it humorous that he and his daughter were saying that. In a country that the church is the main power, I feel they can suceed, but what was wrong with the Roman Empire and the Italians after that was that there was absolutley no system of checks and balances for the shear idea of who the Pope is.

About the 'having a counter to everything' the Bible doesn't magically sprout out this white light that then begins speaking to me, telling me what I need to do to be a good Christian. If the Bible did have a counter to everything, if any book had a counter to everything, then 'faith' would not be an issue. The fact that the feelings of faith or hope exist rejects the fact that that same thing has 'all the answers' or else faith would not be involved.

Also, I'm not a big believer in the entire idea of karma ((the western spin on this idea, mind you, I know Hindu Karma is different)). I could name people who do bad things who get killed in accidents, but I could also name good people. There is no statistic to prove this either way, it is purely objective, and I feel is based more about the situation around you than anything else.

What are we even still arguing about though?

[Rafael Domination]

'tis rare for people to argue on this site, Alex, my friend! :D

I think we were simply mulling things over. Which is better than swearing our points out. :lol:

[Mercy]

Erm....I didn't mean all people, just individuals. ^_^

As for other religions, several religions have the same basic morals: Do not kill, steal, etc. I think, even if people do not believe in God, if they are good people, then they will go to Heaven. For example, I know some Buddhists and they are some of the kindest people I've met. The will help anyone who needs it. And isn't that what Christains who follow God are supposed to do? =) So, even if someone doesn't believe in the same God, I can't see them going to Hell.

[Rafael Domination]

That's where our beliefs differ. I do not think it'll be in the interest in an Infinite Cosmic Being to allow those who don't play by his rules into a place set for those who do. God said our works mean nothing when they are used as cash to buy our way into heaven. Besides, the way to heaven is so much easier than being a good person, technically speaking. You have to acknowledge Jesus as the only payment for your sins, and believe that he will do so without charge. The good works fall in after that.

[Mercy]

Yet, someone could accept Jesus as their savior and still go around killing people. =( Not everyone who believes in Christ is a good person, and the same goes for people who don't believe in Him.

[Rafael Domination]

Ah, but you don't seem to have read the Hebrews counter to that notion.

God's going to chastise his followers, and if they think they can go around doing that, then God might just take them to Heaven early. I read somewhere in the Bible that 'there is a sin unto death'. Chastisement from God can vary with everyone, but there are some Christians who have met an early demise cuz' they thought they can abuse God's free and invulnerable gift of Salvation. I, for one, don't want to tempt God. :D

[Mercy]

Still, what about people who care for the poor, love everyone and set aside their lives to helping people and these helpers aren't Christian/believe in Jesus/God? Why would God punish them for doing his work, even if they didn't believe in Him/Jesus?

[Rafael Domination]

I know it sounds bad. But look, they're not his 'children' yet. As much as he wants them on his side, they have to make that choice. Besides, that's why he placed Christians on his world anyway. Their job is to tell everyone about the Free Gift and not let those Good Works go to waste. God's not to blame. Satan messed everything up by tempting Adam and Eve and placing this Hereditary Cure on humanity as a whole. Please realize that God is under no obligation whatsoever to save or love us. As an infinite being, he created us out of nothingness, and if it ever came to rank, we are still nothing compared to him. But God went as far to sent part of himself onto Earth as a human and sacrifice it for our sin. People think of Jesus dying on the cross, but they don't get the whole picture of it.

God demands a price for sin, and the price is so high that nothing we do can pay for it. Not works. Not religion. An infinite price has to be paid, and only someone possessing Infinity can do that.

Ever wonder why Jesus wept on the cross 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?'. That was God the Father turning his back on God the Son. Jesus took all of the sin humanity has ever committed onto Him that day and looked so filthy to God the Father that his own Father could bear to look at Him. It made God sick. A perfect being being flamed for what we have done. And then, the immortal had to die. Oh, and the symbolism with the veil in the ark of the covenant being torn into half? In Olden times, only the High Priest, symbolizing Jesus, could enter the Holy of Holies, a room that represented God's own throne. No one else could enter. God the Father essentially had himself separated from humanity, hence the veil. But with Jesus' death, he basically got rid of that separation and reconciled man and God. With his own suffering. When he really didn't need to. Out of free will.

Don't you think that's enough. Shouldn't we meet God halfway? He already proved his love towards us doing that, but he is still God, not our dog. We play by His rules, or we suffer for it. While it may be a tragedy, if people stick to trying to pave their way into heaven via works, then they are in for a really sad eternity.

[Mercy]

I can see what you're saying. But we can't speak for God, overall. He decides, we're just trying to understand him now. ^^:

[Rafael Domination]

Well, he kinda spoke for himself when he wrote the Bible. He also said that he would preserve the Bible a all costs. Yes, there exists a lot of bad versions out there, but the KJV has been translated word for word and the scribes used were serious when it came to their work. There was this pastor who researched on the way the KJV was compiled and the scribes would get rid of a whole manuscript if they found as much as three mistakes in it.

But yeah, it's hard to understand God completely. We can only know certain facts of him for sure. Be he does have emotions. When he modeled us in his own image, the Bible meant his spirit, cuz' God is a spirit. Now, we can feel emotions and understand cosmic and abstract things. God can feel rage and hate...we do to. The only thins is that God's rage and hate are perfect. God is angry when he is provoked too much and his word is ignored continuously. God has said that he has hated no person. Instead, his rage is perfect because he hates SIN, not someone, but what they do. He directs love towards humans, but his hate towards what they do.

So yeah, I'd still continue to strive to understand God, though. Good point there, Mercy.

[Mercy]

Thankies. ^^
Yeah, I can see God getting angry.....some of the things we do are really stupid.
But in my mind, I see him as a fatherly, loving figure, so it's still hard for me to see him sending kind but non-believing people to Hell.

[Rafael Domination]

Oh, he's that alright. And it's hard for me to see that too. In fact, Hell was created for Satan in the first place. In fact, I can almost imagine a pang of sorrow going through God's heart whenever someone is sent to Hell. The thing is, I can see Jesus being that Fatherly Figure while God that Father, Jehovah, is the judge that has to sentence people. But he has to but them somewhere, and it is his Will that there are two places people can go two when they die. Heaven. Or Hell. No Limbo.

And the thing is, Satan knows that. Why do you think he's making something as simple as trusting and calling upon Jesus such a big deal.

[Nyx]

-butts into thread-
---waaaaait. Raff, are you saying that if someone is a great person but they do not acknowledge God, he will send them to Hell?
[I'm not sure if I just read all that wrong or if that is actually what you're saying]

[Rafael Domination]

I'm saying that everyone is going to hell if they don't get the receipt for the price Jesus paid. He's done enough. We should meet him halfway.

[Nyx]

That makes no sense to me. Can you just clearly answer the question, Please?

[Rafael Domination]

That's what I've been saying all long. :D

Acknowledging God won't matter. Good works won't buy our way into Heaven. The price is infinite, and we are incapable of that.

[Nyx]

What the hell does that mean? No one goes to heaven?

[Rafael Domination]

No one is CAPABLE of going to heaven by their own deeds. Jesus bought us a ticket, and it's totally free to take it from him, and he'll never take it back from us, but we have to TAKE the ticket from his hands. Simply acknowledging that he has the ticket won't work. Trying to but the ticket from him with good works won' work either. Trying to buy tickets from others won't work.

[Nyx]

So how does one TAKE the ticket?

[Rafael Domination]

By acknowledging that they need Jesus, that their sin condemns them, that there is no other way, and by asking him to save them from their sins and telling him that they trust him to keep his promise.

You don't have to be in the presence of a priest or pastor to do that. I know someone who couldn't take it anymore and asked Jesus to save him in his bedroom. You don't have to pray aloud or do some ritual. It's simple trust, sincerity and faith.

It's so simple. It's free.

[Nyx]

So say say "Bob" who does nothing productive [not saying he sins either] in his life however he does realize his need for Jesus [?] would go to heaven, but "Bill" who is a great man, has helped hundreds of people but believes the meaning of life to be helping others and not pleasing God would go to hell?

[Rafael Domination]

Bob would soon be stirred up by the Holy Spirit to make more sense of his life. Yep, the Holy Spirit is part of the package, and wants nothing more than to accomplish God's perfect will in the new believer. Bob would soon find a desire to quit sinning and do something more productive with his life. That's my case.

Bill however, is a tragedy. While he has done good works, he is still not in God's circle of 'adopted family'. What he does is of great use in THIS life, but rules are rules, and they are meaningless in the NEXT life without God's seal of Salvation. 'For all our righteousness is as filthy rags.' Donating money does not impress God. God donates to us our next breath. The money Bill is using to help people belongs to God, as well as all the skills he used to get it. Works are useless without faith or salvation. That's a sad part of the curse Satan introduced into this world.

[Nyx]

That's....wow.
So God is not impressed with people doing good work and living a good life, god is impressed with being worshiped and acknowledged?
Quite honestly, this God you have shaped if anything sounds selfish to me.

[Rafael Domination]

Please don't twist the words.

God specifically stated that Charity is the best virtue of all. He wants people to do good works and help others and all that jazz. But doing it on our own and without his seal of approval is a no-no. And yes, God is to be worshipped. God is a jealous God, he said so himself, and he has the right to. Imagine, those little insects called humans he died for, that he loved so much he literally tore himself apart for them, that he provides with food, a way to heaven, and a way to communicate with him and life even when he doesn't need to...they have the right to tell God 'Yo! Big guy! I wanna do this my way, and you better comply.' It's fortunate that I'm not God, because I would have squished that fool long time ago.

[Mercy]

Well, that would be true, if they believed in Him. Since they don't believe in God, they don't see it that way and I don't think it's right that God would send them away just for that. I mean...they were raised that way, it's their thinking pattern. Besides, they see it as doing it their god's way.

And if it's an athiest, it just means they don't believe in God. They aren't really rebelling against doing it His way. They might not even know what His way is.

[Rafael Domination]

mean...they were raised that way

Ah, now that's another reason why we Christians are here. It's our duty to tell them that, and spread the good news, like I've been saying a million times. There's also another verse that their blood is on our hands if we don't tell them. But once they have made a decision out of free will to refuse, their blood is on their hands.

But this is coming from the view of a Christian, someone who came from a religion where the path to heaven isn't paved by 'YOU MUST DO' but by 'IT IS DONE'.

[Mercy]

But people getting annoyed if you preach to them. >.>

[Rafael Domination]

And when they tell us to leave, we have to leave. But they've made a choice. Also, my pastor tries not to preach. He won't go up to someone and say 'hey buddy, your going to hell.' That's not spreading the good news, and if we lose that person to hell, we're going to pay for that. But people have to chose, and that's a fact. It's simple, but Satan's always trying to get people to complicate things by luring pastors to sin, making it sound like God's the selfish one when they should realize that God's done all he can short of groveling at out feet. It's a truth that people feel they have to question or prod when all God's asking for is simple faith.

I get annoyed when people preach to me. I hated it when the pastor told me that I have to make that decision. I asked why God had to be so cruel and unfair. And then it hit me: God's under no obligation whatsoever to give you you next heartbeat. Of course, I struggled with pride for a while. But eventually, my pastor's kindness won me over. And I haven't regretted it since.

Yeah. ^^

[Nyx]

Please don't twist the words.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to.


God specifically stated that Charity is the best virtue of all. He wants people to do good works and help others and all that jazz. But doing it on our own and without his seal of approval is a no-no.

Oh I see, so me doing good means nothing unless I pray to God while doing it? Am I no different to god wether I sin or do good as long as I do not beileve in his existence?


And yes, God is to be worshipped. God is a jealous God, he said so himself, and he has the right to. Imagine, those little insects called humans he died for, that he loved so much he literally tore himself apart for them, that he provides with food, a way to heaven, and a way to communicate with him and life even when he doesn't need to...they have the right to tell God 'Yo! Big guy! I wanna do this my way, and you better comply.' It's fortunate that I'm not God, because I would have squished that fool long time ago.
Jelousy is a human emotion, I don't think it applies to something as great as God.
If God's sole purpose for creating us was to be worshiped, he could have simply created us to do so. He could have given us solid, undeniable , unquestionable proof of his existence; he could've simply made us with no choice but to worship him. But worshiping God does him no good, something as great as God surely doesn't need our prayers. Which leads me to believe God would treat all his children who have led a good, productive life equallly no matter if they worship him or if they believe there's no God. One who leads a good life could not possibly seem ungrateful to God because that human has done his best to use all God has given him to the fullest, even if he doesn't know it was God who gave it to him.


Ah, now that's another reason why we Christians are here. It's our duty to tell them that, and spread the good news, like I've been saying a million times.
Just out of curiousity, why is it that Christians are meant to do this and not Muslims, or Jews?

It's a truth that people feel they have to question or prod when all God's asking for is simple faith.
Random thing to point out but: faith isn't exactly simple.

[Alex]

I wasn't going to jump back in on this because I don't want this to get to heated, but for some reason I can't find this exact quote, but I saw somewhere on one of these posts Raffy saying that people only doing good deeds to buy their way into heaven is bad. Thats not what you said, of course, but you make it sound like anyone who is a non-Christian who does good deeds is just doing it to go to heaven and that, my friend, is batshit bonkers.

Also, the reason its Christians' duty is because Raffy is Christian. If Raffy were Hindu then it would be Hindu's duty. Everyone who is of a religion ((and educated at least in basic theology)) is of a religion because that religion is best.

I, personally, don't agree with Raffy, but I don't want to argue ((haha... right.... lets see how long that lasts)) as to why because it will just end up being the same conclusion as in my head, and I don't want to believe that.

I don't want to believe that quote unquote 'my God' would send a fifteen year old boy living in a third world country to hell if he dies of an infection and has never heard the word 'Christianity'. I don't want to believe that my 'loving' God would do something like that. Is that where we get the term life isn't fair? That people who are lucky enough to be born into a Christian family have a higher chance of being saved, even if they are a dick, than the nicest people born into horrible situations who are uneducated at their death? I will never believe that, quite frankly.

Also, just a side note, why can God be worshiped so much and have so many approve, but when a mortal is prideful they are condemend. If we are supposed to live our lives the way God lives his own then shouldn't we priase being worshiped? Shouldn't the most powerful and influential man on earth be praised because he is living like God?

I'm going to try and keep my mouth shut from now on, but no one should get their hopes up...

[Rafael Domination]

You both have a lot of good points.

I wasn't going to jump back in on this because I don't want this to get to heated, but for some reason I can't find this exact quote, but I saw somewhere on one of these posts Raffy saying that people only doing good deeds to buy their way into heaven is bad. Thats not what you said, of course, but you make it sound like anyone who is a non-Christian who does good deeds is just doing it to go to heaven and that, my friend, is batshit bonkers.

Also, the reason its Christians' duty is because Raffy is Christian. If Raffy were Hindu then it would be Hindu's duty. Everyone who is of a religion ((and educated at least in basic theology)) is of a religion because that religion is best.

I, personally, don't agree with Raffy, but I don't want to argue ((haha... right.... lets see how long that lasts)) as to why because it will just end up being the same conclusion as in my head, and I don't want to believe that.

I don't want to believe that quote unquote 'my God' would send a fifteen year old boy living in a third world country to hell if he dies of an infection and has never heard the word 'Christianity'. I don't want to believe that my 'loving' God would do something like that. Is that where we get the term life isn't fair? That people who are lucky enough to be born into a Christian family have a higher chance of being saved, even if they are a dick, than the nicest people born into horrible situations who are uneducated at their death? I will never believe that, quite frankly.

Also, just a side note, why can God be worshiped so much and have so many approve, but when a mortal is prideful they are condemend. If we are supposed to live our lives the way God lives his own then shouldn't we priase being worshiped? Shouldn't the most powerful and influential man on earth be praised because he is living like God?

I'm going to try and keep my mouth shut from now on, but no one should get their hopes up...


Although I made it sound like people who do good deeds do it to get to heaven, I am not. I just stated the fact as it is.

And I don't want to believe that either. I don't know all the answers either. But if that's the case, then people can't blame God for it. It's Adam and Eve's and Satan's fault. Adam and his wife from listening to that snake and hence condemning their future generations to an eternity without God. But the only thing I can do is spread God's word, and he will require the blood of those who pass into Hell from the hands of Christians.

But the thing is, Alex, you're ONLY focusing on what YOU THINK God should do to humanity. It's a hard pill for the proud to swallow, but an Infinite Being is under no obligation to do anything good for us. We were created from nothing. Compared to God, we are still nothing. He doesn't have to give us our next heartbeat, let alone free passage into Heaven. So we have no right to demand that God should lighten up on humanity and send those who are 'good' people to heaven, cuz' God doesn't have to and God did enough on his part. He already tore himself up to give us a free ticket to heaven. It's now the Christian's job to inform everyone on this planet about that, as well as demonstrate God's virtues at the same time. God did more than enough.

Oh, and God will abase the proud because it is among the seven deadly sins. It is probably the worst sin-inducer. Pride was able to fell an angel, Lucifer. You can guess why God hates pride so much. Besides, we weren't meant to live how God lives. We were meant to live how we wants us to live. Again, a bitter pill for the proud to swallow, and I'm speaking to myself more than anyone, but a pill to swallow it is.

And Alex, I don't mind you talking at all. You've been civilized, and that's what debating is all about. :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafael Domination
Please don't twist the words.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to.

Quote:
God specifically stated that Charity is the best virtue of all. He wants people to do good works and help others and all that jazz. But doing it on our own and without his seal of approval is a no-no.
Oh I see, so me doing good means nothing unless I pray to God while doing it? Am I no different to god wether I sin or do good as long as I do not beileve in his existence?

Quote:
And yes, God is to be worshipped. God is a jealous God, he said so himself, and he has the right to. Imagine, those little insects called humans he died for, that he loved so much he literally tore himself apart for them, that he provides with food, a way to heaven, and a way to communicate with him and life even when he doesn't need to...they have the right to tell God 'Yo! Big guy! I wanna do this my way, and you better comply.' It's fortunate that I'm not God, because I would have squished that fool long time ago.
Jelousy is a human emotion, I don't think it applies to something as great as God.
If God's sole purpose for creating us was to be worshiped, he could have simply created us to do so. He could have given us solid, undeniable , unquestionable proof of his existence; he could've simply made us with no choice but to worship him. But worshiping God does him no good, something as great as God surely doesn't need our prayers. Which leads me to believe God would treat all his children who have led a good, productive life equallly no matter if they worship him or if they believe there's no God. One who leads a good life could not possibly seem ungrateful to God because that human has done his best to use all God has given him to the fullest, even if he doesn't know it was God who gave it to him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafael Domination
Ah, now that's another reason why we Christians are here. It's our duty to tell them that, and spread the good news, like I've been saying a million times.
Just out of curiousity, why is it that Christians are meant to do this and not Muslims, or Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafael Domination
It's a truth that people feel they have to question or prod when all God's asking for is simple faith.
Random thing to point out but: faith isn't exactly simple.

You're twisting the words again, Nyx. ^^

I never said it good works were nothing without prayer. I said that they were irrelevant to get someone into heaven. It's like God asking for infinite tons of gold and Bob trying to pay with one gram of silver.

And yeah, God could have created us with robots. But that isn't worship. That's a loud droning noise without any special value. Worship is best when it is done sincerely, with love and with a free will. Worshipping God does him no good, yeah. It was meant to do US good. God doesn't need our prayers. He wants them. He deserves them. And even when we don't give it, he is patient enough not to immediately throw an obstacle in out path that will continue to break us until we crawl back to him. I know its a bitter pill to swallow, again. But GOD HAS DONE ENOUGH, AND IT IS HUMANITY THAT SHOULD MEET HIM HALFWAY.

I mean, please. Let's pretend that I'm God. (Scary thought). I can set my own rules cuz' I can. Because I'm perfect, any rule I set is perfect. I am incapable of making any mistake, and I have full authority to respond with the harshest punishment to any of my rules that are broken. I don't have to help you live, let alone send part of me to die for you and take the punishment for you. But I will because I want to. And I have. And then you have the audacity to tell me that I should play by your rules? If I were God, I'd say 'Phooey on that', destroy humanity, kill Satan and create something better that has free will and won't be suckered into disobeying me - ever. A new creation that focuses on that good I do for it instead of complaining every single time. But guess what - everyone is fortunate that God hasn't done that to humanity. What do they do instead? "It's not fair...". And guess what? That pisses me off at my past self for being a total idiot for thinking that way before.

And I'm saying this form a Christian view. And besides, what other God was there who tore himself apart and allowed his own son to be killed for someone else's sin. And that someone happens to be a total ingrate who doesn't deserve his next breath? Other religions say 'DO'. True Christianity says 'DONE'. If you don't want to see my point, again YOU HAVE FREE WILL. YOU ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO LISTEN TO ME AT ALL.

And yes, faith can be simple. God said it. I know God is good. He backed it up with his scripture. I'll believe it.

Simple faith. No 'but what if' or 'but that's not fair', or 'but why does that have to be'. I personally would stay away from blind faith. I've been taught to always question authority (not challenge it) but once the questions are answered, I'm only going to stir up doubt and complication by poking at things that only lead into circles.

[Nyx]

You both have a lot of good points.




Although I made it sound like people who do good deeds do it to get to heaven, I am not. I just stated the fact as it is.

And I don't want to believe that either. I don't know all the answers either. But if that's the case, then people can't blame God for it. It's Adam and Eve's and Satan's fault. Adam and his wife from listening to that snake and hence condemning their future generations to an eternity without God. But the only thing I can do is spread God's word, and he will require the blood of those who pass into Hell from the hands of Christians.

But the thing is, Alex, you're ONLY focusing on what YOU THINK God should do to humanity. It's a hard pill for the proud to swallow, but an Infinite Being is under no obligation to do anything good for us. We were created from nothing. Compared to God, we are still nothing. He doesn't have to give us our next heartbeat, let alone free passage into Heaven.
Nobody here is asking for free passage, but after good deeds, isn't Heaven what a fair God would give a human?

So we have no right to demand that God should lighten up on humanity and send those who are 'good' people to heaven, cuz' God doesn't have to and God did enough on his part.
It's not about enough or not enough, God is a creator, so he created. Now if he is a fair creator, he will not punish his children simply because they did not acknowledge him or Jesus:rolleyes:




You're twisting the words again, Nyx. ^^
I'm not tryiing to, that's why I put most of what I'm uncertain of in question forms, for you to confirm it.


I never said it good works were nothing without prayer. I said that they were irrelevant to get someone into heaven. It's like God asking for infinite tons of gold and Bob trying to pay with one gram of silver.
But that's just it, one gram of silver is nothing next to infinite tons of gold, so good deeds are nothing without prayers. It's either you're in heaven or not, so really you can be the most generous, respectable, honest, caring person in the world, but it doesn't get you to heaven the way saying "I believe in Jesus and God" does. Is that what you're saying? Anywhere that I went wrong there, correct me.


But GOD HAS DONE ENOUGH, AND IT IS HUMANITY THAT SHOULD MEET HIM HALFWAY.
What is your definition of meeting him halfway, becoming christian? I think living a good life and being a good human being is meeting him more than halfway, it's meeting him all the way.

But I will because I want to. And I have. And then you have the audacity to tell me that I should play by your rules?
I don't even see the relevance in this, but then again, I am quite sleepy. I'm not talking about playing by anyone's rules, if someone leads a good life they have followed God's rules to the fullest, they have just done so without acknowledging the rules.
Let's take our world for example Say I live in my country and never ever break a law, yet I have never even read the rule. But as a human being, living by my morals, I just don't break the law. It would seem ridiculous for the government to lock me up because I have never read the law instead of applauding me for being a great citizen.
That is what you're saying god would do, ignore the fact that I haven't broken the rules and magnifyy the fact that I didn't read the rules to begin with.


Other religions say 'DO'. True Christianity says 'DONE'.
Do and done what? I have no idea what that means...


If you don't want to see my point, again YOU HAVE FREE WILL. YOU ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO LISTEN TO ME AT ALL.
It's not about not WANTING to see your point, it's not being ABLE to. There's a difference.



Simple faith. No 'but what if' or 'but that's not fair', or 'but why does that have to be'. I personally would stay away from blind faith. I've been taught to always question authority (not challenge it)

Right, well that's what I'm doing, asking questions to keep away from blind faith.

[Crocolyle]

Since I went to Christian school for 13 years, educated by nuns in elementary school and brothers in high school, I'll try to answer your questions.

Nobody here is asking for free passage, but after good deeds, isn't Heaven what a fair God would give a human?

That's why the Christians created limbo, a place for the unbaptized and repentant nonbelievers. Because of a lack of scriptural backing the Pope shut it down somewhat recently (I think within the last few decades) and said, "you know... they could just be saved. IDK."


It's not about enough or not enough, God is a creator, so he created. Now if he is a fair creator, he will not punish his children simply because they did not acknowledge him or Jesus:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, this is what most Protestants believe. Some Christians, like Catholics and Orthodox, say that good works, sacraments (particularly Baptism, Eucharist, and Reconciliation), AND belief/faith are all required for salvation. I'm not too sure about Orthodox though--historically the Eastern church because of Greek influence focused primarily on theology whereas Western Christianity (i. e. Catholicism and later many Protestant denominations focus on the crucifixion and resurrection).



But that's just it, one gram of silver is nothing next to infinite tons of gold, so good deeds are nothing without prayers. It's either you're in heaven or not, so really you can be the most generous, respectable, honest, caring person in the world, but it doesn't get you to heaven the way saying "I believe in Jesus and God" does. Is that what you're saying? Anywhere that I went wrong there, correct me.

Different Christian denominations say different things:
Lutherans believe in sola fide or only faith
Presbyterians/Calvinists say God chooses who's saved before you are born. You can tell who they are because God favors them (it's from this denomination you get the term "American/Protestant Work Ethic" because a sociologist noted this denomination worked harder to be successful to show God favors them)
Catholics say Good Works, Faith, and Sacraments... but you can never really be sure. (And since I explained one term, it's from that you get "Catholic Guilt")

[Rafael Domination]

Nobody here is asking for free passage, but after good deeds, isn't Heaven what a fair God would give a human?

No. A 'fair' God would give us hell. You don't seem to realize the graveness of one single lie in terms of violating a cosmic law. Good deeds mean nothing to atone for our sins. The Bible states clearly that all our righteousness is as filthy rags. An infinite debt demands an infinite punishment.

It's not about enough or not enough, God is a creator, so he created. Now if he is a fair creator, he will not punish his children simply because they did not acknowledge him or Jesus:rolleyes:

A 'fair' creator will reduce his creations - they're not his kids yet if they don't even believe in him - back into the nothingness he created them from and make a better creation. If they don't want to listen to me, or even acknowledge that I exist, then our relationship is meaningless. And it is about enough. Jesus is enough to get us to heaven. We aren't. Justifying it is pointless.

I'm not tryiing to, that's why I put most of what I'm uncertain of in question forms, for you to confirm it.


But that's just it, one gram of silver is nothing next to infinite tons of gold, so good deeds are nothing without prayers. It's either you're in heaven or not, so really you can be the most generous, respectable, honest, caring person in the world, but it doesn't get you to heaven the way saying "I believe in Jesus and God" does. Is that what you're saying? Anywhere that I went wrong there, correct me.

No, that Infinite gold is Jesus christ. God wants a price of infinite gold. We try to give him silver. Jesus steps in and says 'I'll pay the debt but you have to believe in me'. And then that's like us saying, no, I'll just go ahead and pay this on my own. And all he respect and goodness of humanity is still insufficient to get us to heaven. Again, another hard pill for the proud to swallow, but that's the way God set the rules, and it's his universe, so yeah

What is your definition of meeting him halfway, becoming christian? I think living a good life and being a good human being is meeting him more than halfway, it's meeting him all the way.

Honestly, that assumption is nothing but pride. We human beings are INCAPABLE of even keeping the 'thou shalt not bear false witness' rule. The Bible also clearly states that all liars shall burn in the lake of fire. That would be me, and everyone included. Ergo, good works don't count. We can try to justify and assume God 'SHOULD' do things like this, but that's trying to bring him to our level. That just won't happen. He's killed himself for humanity. I'd say that was more than enough when we don't deserve our next heartbeat.

I don't even see the relevance in this, but then again, I am quite sleepy. I'm not talking about playing by anyone's rules, if someone leads a good life they have followed God's rules to the fullest, they have just done so without acknowledging the rules.
Let's take our world for example Say I live in my country and never ever break a law, yet I have never even read the rule. But as a human being, living by my morals, I just don't break the law. It would seem ridiculous for the government to lock me up because I have never read the law instead of applauding me for being a great citizen.
That is what you're saying god would do, ignore the fact that I haven't broken the rules and magnifyy the fact that I didn't read the rules to begin with.

Everyone has not followed God's rules! :D We've all lies, cheated, lusted, stolen, hated, were envious...God's rules are impossible to keep. That means we've broken them. That means we're going to have to pay a price we cannot pay to avoid the punishment. The solution: Jesus' payment.


Do and done what? I have no idea what that means...

Ever notice that other religions always say 'You must DO THIS to get to heaven OR ELSE.' True Christianity says 'IT IS DONE. YOU JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE AND TRUST IT'.


It's not about not WANTING to see your point, it's not being ABLE to. There's a difference.

If I am unclear, you'll have to forgive me, sis. I am, like what, several miles away from you, and therefore, in the same timezone, and it's way past my bedtime. But I have to state my side, not because I have to prove I can debate the best and always have the last say, but because I wanna share the news. ya? ^^


Right, well that's what I'm doing, asking questions to keep away from blind faith.

Good. But there comes a time when the questions have been answered, its just people try to look for the answers that they want to hear

.....

[Alex]

Unfortunately, this is what most Protestants believe. Some Christians, like Catholics and Orthodox, say that good works, sacraments (particularly Baptism, Eucharist, and Reconciliation), AND belief/faith are all required for salvation. I'm not too sure about Orthodox though--historically the Eastern church because of Greek influence focused primarily on theology whereas Western Christianity (i. e. Catholicism and later many Protestant denominations focus on the crucifixion and resurrection).

It is never really said anywhere in Orthodox theology it is needed, it is just the topic of theosis that is the issue here and what you consider that to mean. The true defenition of theosis is the the job of any human to strive to attain the same infinite knowledge as God. This is where the protestant idea of salvation originated, but they are not one in the same. The old bishop in our area ((I live 30 minutes away from the second largest Greek city in the U.S., so we had our own bishop here, and he told me this, paraphrased of course, himself. Although I have met other Orthodox, not priests or monastic persons mind you, who believe you have to be Christian, but I'll take the Bishops word =p))

I'm really sorry guys, this is giong to be followed by a double post, I just wanted to clear this up.

[Mercy]

Ever notice that other religions always say 'You must DO THIS to get to heaven OR ELSE.' True Christianity says 'IT IS DONE. YOU JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE AND TRUST IT'.



But isn't what you're saying the same thing. "You HAVe to believe in God/Jesus and trust in them or you're not going to Heaven!"

*sighs*

I can see were you're coming from, but I just can't believe in what're saying. I'm sorry, but I can only see God as someone who will care for all of His creation, whether they are His children or not. ^^;

Edit:

Also, there are several people that have accepted Jesus as someone who lived a long time ago, but not as their Savior. They have acknowledged Jesus, so where do they go?

[Alex]

Raffy, just a few things, this is going to be horribly out of order so forgive me ((this is what you get for writing 1 of the 2 posts I'm going to talk about in quotes >.<)). You say that other religions say you have to do this to get into heaven, but then say all a Christian 'has to do' isn't that doing something? Not trying to sound like a wise ass, but if the task itself isn't that easy and it 'has to be done' isn't that doing something? Just a side note you also use the phrase 'we have to pay' and isn't that doing something as well? Its not easy to pay for something small, let alone 'pay' for the biggest decision or non-decision of your life. Its not an easy thing to put all your faith and trust in an intangible being, so I feel the entire 'Christians don't have to do anything but believe' is a little contradictory and therefore bunk.

Second I'm going to target the pride thing again, and this may just be the way our seperate denominations interpret the Bible, but the Orthodox interpretation is to 'live in the image of God' which it states verbatim at some point in the Bible ((I don't remember anymore)). To me that means live as he lives, live as the ultimate being would live. Lead a divine life. If I'm worshiping a God who would send little 15 year old boys to hell when they haven't heard of him then aren't I just doing it out of fear that I will suffer a similar fate. I wouldn't worship a human who killed his own creation ((child, not this has nothing to do with Jesus, child is referring to us as God's 'children')) so why would I worship a God who purposely does so as well? Is it really out of fear that I could be next? Yes, I am arguing from what I believe God to be, because if I was arguing from your standpoint there wouldn't be confliction now would there?

Wait, so its a Christian's job to spread the word of God to everyone on this planet he can, but even if he fails its fine with God, but an Agnostic theologist who goes around explaining all the major religions and all the major denominations to everyone on the planet, is not because he doesn't have tangible proof that a God exists? If someone else, a non-Christian, is doing God's work then why does he get left out, but the Christian who sat on his lazy, mundane bum all his life gets into heaven? That seems a little prejudice if you ask me, its the same as if there were a white guy and an asian guy, and they have all the same test scores and exactly the same grades through their academic caeer, but the company still chooses the Asian because he is stereotypically smarter and more hard working. If there is a Christian and an Agnostic, and they have a task from God ((the Christian, however, is aware of it)) but the Christian doesn't complete it at all and the Agnostic does, but the Christian still gets in ahead of the Agnostic?

About the 'sin' thing. Christians and Jews ((and to a degree Muslims, but don't take my word on this because Islam is probably the religion of the major I know least or second least about)) are the only ones with a concept of 'sin' at all. Hindu karma is similar but not the same, and Buddhists don't even have a God ((no, Buddha is not a God, buddha isn't worshipped; its the same situation with Islam and Mohammed)).

Then why are some people born into Christian homes, they obviously have a higher chance of being saved then. How is this decided, is it random? is it luck? does luck exist? is it predetermined? Why do these people get a higher chance to live on in a peaceful afterlife, but other people living in Africa with no knowledge of it what so ever get to die and then after that go to hell?

Also, I don't like the valuing of good deeds to accepting Christ. The way you phrase it you make it sound like if no one did good deeds, but everyone accepted Christ then everyone would get into heaven and everything would be fine and dandy because we payed God with more, but you also know if no one did good deeds we wouldn't be around here, and I don't feel the fact that if a good deed comes from a Christian or from any other religion it changes the fact that it is a good deed.

So God can be proud, but it is one of the deadliest sins for us ((not like the Divine Comedy is based off anything anyway, but the 9th level of hell is for treason, there are supposed to be Brutus, Cassius, and Judas, but I don't believe that for a second)). Isn't doing something then condemning someone for doing the same thing hypocrisy?

Just a question to add to the top of this, what about people who haven't reached the age of maturity, what hapens to them if they die? Also, what if someone is mentally UNABLE to accept a God or understand a concept of God ((meaning if they are mentally retarded A.K.A. an IQ under 60)) do they automatically go to hell? Even if they are God's creations, are they just made with a deadly flaw? The inability to accept Him as their savior and therefore bound for hell from the moment they are born? If God was the one that messed up and made them unable to acknowledge him is it their fault? If its punishment to the parents then is it the child, one of Gods creations, that deserves the punishment?

Thats true, Raffy, and infinite being doesn't have to do anything for us, he could just toy with me and throw me off a cliff and it would be the end, so, by your logic, why do I pray? Out of fear that he might do it to me? To appease him into not sharing the same fate as some poor 14 year old boy in Africa who goes to hell? If so then whats the point in worshiping, is that really the meaning of our lives, to save ourselves through cowardess? If it is then I wayyyy overshot the point.

The next point dives into a theological debate about the way the Bible is comprised, and I think, obviously different than you, especially on this topic, so unless the debate opens itself up then there is no real way to solve this. That being said the final point is entirely objective, and I doubt either of us are going to be changing our minds anyway...

EDIT: In resposne to Mercy's question. Anyone who is educated knows that Jesus exist because Peter, his disciple, started the Catholic church. Whether he was a looney or a true disciple of the Lord depends on what religion you associate yourself with.

[Mercy]

Well, I've been taking religion class since...a long time, probably since first grade and before that I went to Sunday school. It's obvious that Jesus exists, because of the church as well as other evidence from non-Catholics/Christians that wrote about him. I was just pointing out, that some people don't believe that he exists and some do, but they aren't Christian. I was wondering about those people. ^^;

[Nyx]

Aight, so Alex made a lot of points that I was going to make so I'll try not to repeat him, but forgive me if I slip here and there.


No. A 'fair' God would give us hell. You don't seem to realize the graveness of one single lie in terms of violating a cosmic law. Good deeds mean nothing to atone for our sins. The Bible states clearly that all our righteousness is as filthy rags. An infinite debt demands an infinite punishment.
No, a Blind God would give us hell. Good deeds mean everything to atone our sins, good deeds is what God wants from his human beings, and once one begins to do good deeds it is near impossible for him to sin [during that time of his life]. Good deeds are turning away from our sins, a good life is fixing our mistakes. You make out God like he is waiting for us to lie one day,so he can yell "acknowledge me now or you will go to hell". But God as you clearly know, is not a petty human being. He must know that living a good life, even if someone might not look at it from a Christian point of view, that human has already acknowledged God. There's no need for a human being leading a good life to look up and say "I have faith in Jesus,", there's no need for him to even directly think it, because living a good, honest life means he has faith in our existence and life, and God is in our existence. So that's faith enough.



A 'fair' creator will reduce his creations - they're not his kids yet if they don't even believe in him - back into the nothingness he created them from and make a better creation. [
U]Not believing in him makes him no less our father. I could say to my dad [literal dad] that I do not believe him to be my dad, I could believe that he is not my dad. That doesn't change that he conceived me, he is still my dad. Not worshipping God makes him no less my father, than he is to Christians, Muslims and Jews. [/U]

If they don't want to listen to me, or even acknowledge that I exist, then our relationship is meaningless. And it is about enough.
[B]But see, a creator's child can never be meaningless to him, when he put part of himself to create the human race, he already made us all meaningful. A creator can not simply turn his back on what he has created, because he has in fact created them. Think of a mother, [I know this is a weak example, but it's the best I can think of], a mother's child could be a theif, a murderer, or a top studen, she will love her child all the same; she might get disappointed, punish him, kick him out, whatever, but she will still always love him. God is our creator, and he loves all his children, you said it yourself that he directs his hate at what we do. So the relationship isn't meaningless, all God's humen, are his children.

Jesus is enough to get us to heaven. We aren't. Justifying it is pointless.
So worship is what gets us to heaven, not anything else we do? If I agreed with your view on God I would never once consider religion again, I would be an athiest in a heartbeat. A God that reserves a peaceful afterlife for his worshipers is a selfish God, he is a God not worth being worshiped.







No, that Infinite gold is Jesus christ.
(just out of curiousity, why Jesus and not Mohammad or Moses?]

God wants a price of infinite gold. We try to give him silver. Jesus steps in and says 'I'll pay the debt but you have to believe in me'.
Why do we need to believe in Jesus? [well in the religious sense, I know Jesus existed, but I don't think you mean just his existence] Jesus, whatever we believe him to be, was human, and God is God. Why would he ask us to believe in Jesus instead of him?!

And then that's like us saying, no, I'll just go ahead and pay this on my own. And all he respect and goodness of humanity is still insufficient to get us to heaven. Again, another hard pill for the proud to swallow, but that's the way God set the rules, and it's his universe, so yeah
God set the rules? But which rules do we follow? the Bible's? the Quaran's? In Islam people believe that even the last second before your death, if you ask for forgiveness of your sins, God grants it to you. Why is the Bible's way of saying only acknowledgement of Jesus Christ will get you forgiveness any more reliable?



Honestly, that assumption is nothing but pride.
I don't see why.

The Bible also clearly states that all liars shall burn in the lake of fire. That would be me, and everyone included.
The Bible is also not meant literally. I don't expect a red lake to await me after I die. Liars shall burn in the lake of fire has a clear message: DON'T LIE. And I don't think God will push everyone who lied in their human life into that fancy lake of fire, God has forgiveness. God can see when people correct their mistake. Lying or any sin, does not automatically condemn you to hell, if it did, what would be the point of the rest of my self. If let's say..three lies would land me in Hell, why would I even stay alive past today?

good works don't count.
Really? Where would you be today without past generations good deeds?

We can try to justify and assume God 'SHOULD' do things like this, but that's trying to bring him to our level.
No, bringing him down to our level is saying God only grants peace to those who worship him. And it's not a 'should', it's a 'would'.
He's killed himself for humanity.
What does that even mean? God didn't kill himself, God is ,and I quote, an infinite being.



Ever notice that other religions always say 'You must DO THIS to get to heaven OR ELSE.' True Christianity says 'IT IS DONE. YOU JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE AND TRUST IT'.
What's your point there? Christians have different phrasing structure? What you as a christian have said during this debate is this: 'You must BELIEVE AND TRUST OR ELSE" It is the exact same thing, phrased differently. You could phrase what other religions say to "It IS DONE. YOU SIMPLY HAvE TO DO THIS", it doesn't change the statement.


If I am unclear, you'll have to forgive me, sis. I am, like what, several miles away from you, and therefore, in the same timezone, and it's way past my bedtime. But I have to state my side, not because I have to prove I can debate the best and always have the last say, but because I wanna share the news. ya?
Right, all I'm saying is it's not that I don't want to see your side, I just can't.And I have to state my side, not to prove I can debate best, but because I want to find the right answer for my life and I can't do that sitting at home staring at my beliefs; I need to question other beilefs and have mine questioned to find my way.



Good. But there comes a time when the questions have been answered, its just people try to look for the answers that they want to hear.

Well I'm still looking for answers that I can believe.

[Shaun]

"Not believing in him makes him no less our father. I could say to my dad [literal dad] that I do not believe him to be my dad, I could believe that he is not my dad. That doesn't change that he conceived me, he is still my dad. Not worshipping God makes him no less my father, than he is to Christians, Muslims and Jews. "

Nyx, I take problems with this. First, you are trying to say that denying the existence of God is the same as denying the existence of your father. Now, we'll take that at face value, with father essentially meaning the male person who gave the genetic material to create you. Here's the problem: You can't deny the existence of a biological father because the very fact that you exist is undeniable proof that you had a father in some way, even if you were created from artificial insemination. You have a biological father and you can't deny that. However, you can deny the existence of God because there isn't proof of God, and the proof suggested by people that believe in God either is illogical or suggestive of something else. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist (he very well might), but you can't PROVE that God exists. You just believe he exists. Whereas you basically have you choice, unless you're told you didn't have father as a child, to believe in the existence of a biological father, because you wouldn't be here without that biological material

That's just something I took issue with.

And I think when it comes down to it, we have to consider something that perhaps you all don't want to consider.
We as human beings are incredibly arrogant to presume we understand anything about a creature as powerful and all knowing as the God many of us believe in. The fact is, to claim we understand him to a lie. We don't understand God in any form and to say we do is to belittle the very supreme being you and I or anyone might presume to exist by giving him/her/it qualities fit for humankind. God isn't and never will be human and none of us would suggest that he/she/it is, yet we apply human qualities and limitations on that God. If God exists, how can we say with any certainty that we know anything about him/her/it? We can't. But we try, and in the end, no matter how hard we try, it doesn't matter, because God will prove to be something beyond our understanding anyway. I don't believe in any one God. I believe in something. I don't understand it and I am not going to bother trying. I'll just live by my own code of ethics and hope it fits him/her/it in the end. If not, I don't believe in a God that will hold it against me if I didn't try to do anything inherently wrong (like rape and murder).

Anywho.

[Nyx]

"Not believing in him makes him no less our father. I could say to my dad [literal dad] that I do not believe him to be my dad, I could believe that he is not my dad. That doesn't change that he conceived me, he is still my dad. Not worshipping God makes him no less my father, than he is to Christians, Muslims and Jews. "

Nyx, I take problems with this. First, you are trying to say that denying the existence of God is the same as denying the existence of your father.
No, that's not what I'm trying to say, yet it does sound like that out of context doesn't it? It was aimed at Raff to explain that what created us, created us, it doesn't change wether we acknowledge that or not. The subject wasn't even denying our father, it's wether denying a father would make him any less the father.


Now, we'll take that at face value, with father essentially meaning the male person who gave the genetic material to create you. Here's the problem: You can't deny the existence of a biological father because the very fact that you exist is undeniable proof that you had a father in some way, even if you were created from artificial insemination. You have a biological father and you can't deny that. However, you can deny the existence of God because there isn't proof of God, and the proof suggested by people that believe in God either is illogical or suggestive of something else.

What I meant was that someone who believes that there is a God who created us [Like Raff] can not logically believe that that creator wouldn't be our "creator" or "father" simply by our denial.
I know there's no substantial proof of God, I wasn't suggesting that biogical fathers and Father in sense of God are the same. The problem is, us humans we understand and explain things by comparison, God is impossible to explain because he isn't anything like anything we know of to compare him to. That's why I mentioned the comparison was weak but the closest my human mind can get to.

[Crocolyle]

It is never really said anywhere in Orthodox theology it is needed, it is just the topic of theosis that is the issue here and what you consider that to mean. The true defenition of theosis is the the job of any human to strive to attain the same infinite knowledge as God. This is where the protestant idea of salvation originated, but they are not one in the same. The old bishop in our area ((I live 30 minutes away from the second largest Greek city in the U.S., so we had our own bishop here, and he told me this, paraphrased of course, himself. Although I have met other Orthodox, not priests or monastic persons mind you, who believe you have to be Christian, but I'll take the Bishops word =p))

I'm really sorry guys, this is going to be followed by a double post, I just wanted to clear this up.

Woops, sorry about the mistake. I know Western theology better than Eastern. Because there are so many similarities between Catholicism and Orthodoxy besides minor things (filioque and different traditions) I assumed most of the theology was the same.

[Rafael Domination]

As I said, Nyx. Humans can justify things any way they want. I told you it would be hard to get something so simple as a free gift of salvation. I speak for Christianity, and in my opinion, it had to be Jesus, cuz' face it - it was him, God himself, who tore his spirit up to make an easy way to get to Heaven. Not Mohammad. Mohmmad probably doesn't even know you existed. Jesus did, and Jesus knew that we humans have this tendency to rationalize what we think is reason, but to God is folly. Jesus knew a lot of humanity would try to shrug his way off and try to substitute their own. It won't work, by the way. But guess what? Jesus died to offer the Ticket anyway. We don't have to do anything to pay for our sins anymore. And Mercy, when I meant DO, I meant it was us who had to perform some action that can be used as payment to get to Heaven. You placed such vagueness on 'DO' to include all verbs. Believing isn't the same as we doing something to save ourselves. It's already been done and we just have to accept that.

Anyways, Nyx, all you're doing is basing thoughts out of guesses. A 'Fair God wouldn't' doesn't quite cut it. It's been written what God wants, and if that free and simple truth is so hard to accept then its your choice.

Take it this way: If you're right, then a lot of people would not get to heaven. There is no such thing as a good human, because all of us sin, and if we were to take out sins and weigh them against the 'good' we've done, we're pretty much screwed. We break one law of God, and that's a trespass against the creator. People don't like that. Tough. And if I'm right, then ANYONE can take of Jesus and get to heaven.

To deny God is to say to him "I don't need you." And nothing less. Words can be twisted and such, but that fact remains, and denying it is only going to result in tragedy. If I didn't even acknowledge my dad's existence, then I deserve to be separated form him. And that's the case for us. Look, God doesn't need to do anything for us. There are people out there who think that God owes them something, and that it's God responsibility to sustain us. Fools. God's done enough, and if people don't like that, again, tough.

The door's always open with him, but if people don't want to go through, thinking that the window is a better way to get it, they are sorely mistaken.

[Nyx]

As I said, Nyx. Humans can justify things any way they want. I told you it would be hard to get something so simple as a free gift of salvation. I speak for Christianity, and in my opinion, it had to be Jesus, cuz' face it - it was him, God himself, who tore his spirit up to make an easy way to get to Heaven. Not Mohammad. Mohmmad probably doesn't even know you existed. Jesus did, and Jesus knew that we humans have this tendency to rationalize what we think is reason, but to God is folly. Jesus knew a lot of humanity would try to shrug his way off and try to substitute their own. It won't work, by the way. But guess what? Jesus died to offer the Ticket anyway. We don't have to do anything to pay for our sins anymore. And Mercy, when I meant DO, I meant it was us who had to perform some action that can be used as payment to get to Heaven. You placed such vagueness on 'DO' to include all verbs. Believing isn't the same as we doing something to save ourselves. It's already been done and we just have to accept that.


Anyways, Nyx, all you're doing is basing thoughts out of guesses. A 'Fair God wouldn't' doesn't quite cut it. It's been written what God wants, and if that free and simple truth is so hard to accept then its your choice.
You're right, it has been written, but for the thousandth time how do we know who's writing to accept?


Take it this way: If you're right, then a lot of people would not get to heaven. There is no such thing as a good human, because all of us sin, and if we were to take out sins and weigh them against the 'good' we've done, we're pretty much screwed.
That's comes off as quite ignorant, but that's just how I see it. Of course all humans sin, if a human never sins, they are not human. But that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a "good human being", humans can only be good to an extent because we all sin, but to that extenet is enough to make someone good.


We break one law of God, and that's a trespass against the creator. People don't like that. Tough. And if I'm right, then ANYONE can take of Jesus and get to heaven.
But really, can ANYONE? I don't see why you didn't respond to Alex's post as well because he pointed this out well, what happens to the 15 year-old boy in Africa who's never heard of Jesus? Your God sends him to hell? Then that God is no God, he has the human emotion of being selfish, and wants to bathe in worship whilst punishing those who do not worship him.


To deny God is to say to him "I don't need you." And nothing less. Words can be twisted and such, but that fact remains, and denying it is only going to result in tragedy.
But which God? Mohammad's? Moses'? Jesus'? There are many interpertations of God out there, if deny one am I denying all? If I accept the wrong one to I go to hell?


If I didn't even acknowledge my dad's existence, then I deserve to be separated form him. And that's the case for us.
That doesn't change the fact that he would still be your dad.


Look, God doesn't need to do anything for us.

You've stated this before and I'll state it clearly: I don't think God needs to do anything for us, it's about where God stands, it's about what God will do and has done for us. You could say he didn't NEED to create us, but he did it all the same. You could say he doesn't NEED to give me my next heartbeat, he does give it all the same. But what I fail to understand is that you seem to be saying God NEEDS to punish us when we deny Jesus. No, he doesn't NEED to do that.



The door's always open with him, but if people don't want to go through, thinking that the window is a better way to get it, they are sorely mistaken.
You don't seem to realize that some people never even see the door. That to some people the window really seems to be the only door.

[Crocolyle]

As I said, Nyx. Humans can justify things any way they want. I told you it would be hard to get something so simple as a free gift of salvation. I speak for Christianity, and in my opinion, it had to be Jesus, cuz' face it - it was him, God himself, who tore his spirit up to make an easy way to get to Heaven. Not Mohammad. Mohmmad probably doesn't even know you existed. Jesus did, and Jesus knew that we humans have this tendency to rationalize what we think is reason, but to God is folly. Jesus knew a lot of humanity would try to shrug his way off and try to substitute their own. It won't work, by the way. But guess what? Jesus died to offer the Ticket anyway. We don't have to do anything to pay for our sins anymore. And Mercy, when I meant DO, I meant it was us who had to perform some action that can be used as payment to get to Heaven. You placed such vagueness on 'DO' to include all verbs. Believing isn't the same as we doing something to save ourselves. It's already been done and we just have to accept that.

Anyways, Nyx, all you're doing is basing thoughts out of guesses. A 'Fair God wouldn't' doesn't quite cut it. It's been written what God wants, and if that free and simple truth is so hard to accept then its your choice.

People have written what they think God wants. We don't know if they truly were inspired by the Holy Ghost. While you can say scripture is proof, you are just appealing to the authority of an unverifiable (i. e. can't be proven to be accurate, you have to take it on faith) source. Also you are making guesses about what God thinks and what Jesus thinks, when you are not either of them. I'm calling shenanigans on that.

Despite all theology, there's only one person that determines whether you get into heaven: God. Though, I guess we can assume the Bible is accurate on ideas of faith and morals.

Take it this way: If you're right, then a lot of people would not get to heaven. There is no such thing as a good human, because all of us sin, and if we were to take out sins and weigh them against the 'good' we've done, we're pretty much screwed. We break one law of God, and that's a trespass against the creator. People don't like that. Tough. And if I'm right, then ANYONE can take of Jesus and get to heaven.

All of us do sin, but that's why as Christians we "believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" (Nicene Creed) and have the sacrament of reconciliation (at least the Catholics do). Also, according to James 2:17-18, faith is superficial and not true unless the "believer" also does good works, even though many interpret the writings of St. Paul as being for "justification by faith." Martin Luther thought that St. James was stupid.

To deny God is to say to him "I don't need you." And nothing less. Words can be twisted and such, but that fact remains, and denying it is only going to result in tragedy. If I didn't even acknowledge my dad's existence, then I deserve to be separated form him. And that's the case for us. Look, God doesn't need to do anything for us. There are people out there who think that God owes them something, and that it's God responsibility to sustain us. Fools. God's done enough, and if people don't like that, again, tough.

The door's always open with him, but if people don't want to go through, thinking that the window is a better way to get it, they are sorely mistaken.

If you're making a point about reconciliation, then scripture should verify your claim. Parable of the Prodigal Son. You turned away from God, denied him, but came back? Let's slaughter the fattened calf, and you are accepted

[Rafael Domination]

Well, I've stated my points repeatedly now, Nyx. We're only going to go around in circles. You can keep salvation simple, or complicated. I choose the simple and free way. ^^

[Crocolyle]

I think James 2:17-18 kind of complicates your view... I mean, that verse asserts faith is meaningless and false without good works.

[Nyx]

I think James 2:17-18 kind of complicates your view... I mean, that verse asserts faith is meaningless and false without good works.

What I'm wondering is, is good works meaningless without a certain faith?

[Crocolyle]

Oh yeah, then totally according to the Bible.

[Alex]

Well I skimmed over most of the argument after my last post ((btw, no problem Croc)) and the only thing I want to say is the use of the word 'do'.

I don't consider it any verb, I consider it anything that is difficutl, it is something you have to 'do'. I believe its difficult to faith into an intangible being to decide the fate for the rest of your life..

[Rafael Domination]

I think James 2:17-18 kind of complicates your view... I mean, that verse asserts faith is meaningless and false without good works.

Yes, but the works ACTIVATE the payment, they themselves do no get you to heaven.

[Crocolyle]

Yes, so while faith is the necessary prerequisite to be saved, your faith is superficial unless you use your faith to do good works. If you "have faith" in God, but don't do anything, your faith isn't real.

[Rafael Domination]

Yes, but remember...correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that passage was directed at hose who were already Saved. I agree, however, that without works, we do not show our faith. I recall that passage in the Bible that scoffs at the man (Let's say 'Bob') who says 'I hope God helps you' to a poor person (let's say, Bill) in need of let's say, food, and then Bob leaves without helping Bill out in any way he can. God may help that person. Who knows? But God said that we must love our neighbors like we love ourselves, and Bob is obligated to help Bill cuz' of that.

[electrilad]

Okay, I'm still trying to come up with my contribution to the conversation, and this is what I've got. This is coming from an agnostic atheist who likes to study religion in her spare time ^^. I'll use Christianity in my examples, because most of the stories is stuff we all know.

Religion and history... are extremely intertwined. But not in a religious way. Religion has shaped history, divided cultures, caused wars, tons of stuff. Holocaust, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, lotsa stuff. But history has not actually really shaped religion. For example, the Bible states that God created the universe in 7 days, Adam and Eve, Virgin Birth, etc. etc. etc. From an atheist stadpoint, NONE OF THOSE THINGS HAPPENED. The universe was created with the big bang, cosmic dust and stuff, dinosaurs evolution, la-di-da. That, in my opinion, is the true history. And none of that stuff appears in the Bible. So, HISTORY history doesn't appear in the Bible. Now, there is SOME fact to it- there probably WAS a Jesus- but he wasn't crucified and come back to life and all that stuff. There's some actual truth in the Bible, but most is just myth. FROM AN ATHEIST STANDPOINT (as not to offend you Christians :)).

This conversation actually reminded me of something said on Red Dwarf.. "In the news today, a missing page from the Bible was found. It reads, 'To my dear Candy. All Characters in the book are fictional and do not represent...'. Christians have condemned the paper, saying it to be heresay." That always makes me laugh.

Right now I want a chocolate cupcake with nutella and the song 'Falling Down' by Atreyu... Bye!

[Alex]

I'll do this point by point

1) How can you be an agnostic atheist. An agnostic is someone who believes there could be a God, but has no proof so is not sure, an atheist is someone who denies the existance of God altogether.

2) I don't believe in the story of Genesis, personally, as a Christian. That does not make me any less of a Christian. Most of the stories are parables, stories with didactic meanings on how to live a just life. That being said, even if God did not create the world in seven day and all that, then how can you prove that the Big Bang was not his doing? You can't... and I can get into an argument about the theory of primordial soup and all that jazz of how life was created if you so wish.

3) Jesus DID exist, there is tangible proof of his crucifiction as well. The debate is whether he was some random idiot or if he truly was the son of God and he resurrected. No one who is educated in theology even the slightest bit can deny his existence, hell, his 'disciple' Peter founded the Catholic Church.

4) An atheists standpoint is not an unbiased standpoint. It is a very biased standpoint, so atheist beliefs do not make your argument any more or less biased. Unbiased would be an agnostic theologian or chaplain ((someone who studies many religion)).

5) What does this have to do with the 40 post discussion we have been having. This is a shot out of left field, not condemning it, just wondering.

[electrilad]

I'll do this point by point

1) How can you be an agnostic atheist. An agnostic is someone who believes there could be a God, but has no proof so is not sure, an atheist is someone who denies the existance of God altogether.

An agnostic atheist is an agnostic who is more tilted to atheism that religion. The opposite is agnostic theist, an agnostic who is more tilted towards religion. My dad's an agnostic theist.

2) I don't believe in the story of Genesis, personally, as a Christian. That does not make me any less of a Christian. Most of the stories are parables, stories with didactic meanings on how to live a just life. That being said, even if God did not create the world in seven day and all that, then how can you prove that the Big Bang was not his doing? You can't... and I can get into an argument about the theory of primordial soup and all that jazz of how life was created if you so wish.

I just don't believe in that stuff.

3) Jesus DID exist, there is tangible proof of his crucifiction as well. The debate is whether he was some random idiot or if he truly was the son of God and he resurrected. No one who is educated in theology even the slightest bit can deny his existence, hell, his 'disciple' Peter founded the Catholic Church.

I know Jesus existed. But I don't think of him as a savior/son of God/come back to life-ish kind of guy, but a founder of a religion. He is equal to Zoroaster, Gautama Buddha, Moses, Muhammad- all the others.

4) An atheists standpoint is not an unbiased standpoint. It is a very biased standpoint, so atheist beliefs do not make your argument any more or less biased. Unbiased would be an agnostic theologian or chaplain ((someone who studies many religion)).

I don't mean to be biased. It's my beliefs. Just like any other person. But I'm in the process of finding a religion that suits me and my points change often, so I don't really have any solid footing.

5) What does this have to do with the 40 post discussion we have been having. This is a shot out of left field, not condemning it, just wondering.

Well, I missed the entire conversation, and just wanted to put in my opinion on the matter.:unsure:

FOUR CHARACTERS (sorry submit reply thingy says I need four characters ;))

[blue phoenix]

Here's my veiw:

I believe there is a 'God' but his or her ways are far beyond our comprehension, I guess you could call me agnostic. I picked up a bible and started reading just for fun (I know I'm weird). I don't really care what other people think about my views/religion.

[Phantom]

I'm Christian, the crusades were not in the name of God but in the name of getting the trade routes back from the arabs. If people judge me because I'm Christian i don't frikin care.
My veiw.

[Crocolyle]

Okay, I'm still trying to come up with my contribution to the conversation, and this is what I've got. This is coming from an agnostic atheist who likes to study religion in her spare time ^^. I'll use Christianity in my examples, because most of the stories is stuff we all know.

Religion and history... are extremely intertwined. But not in a religious way. Religion has shaped history, divided cultures, caused wars, tons of stuff. Holocaust, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, lotsa stuff. But history has not actually really shaped religion. For example, the Bible states that God created the universe in 7 days, Adam and Eve, Virgin Birth, etc. etc. etc. From an atheist stadpoint, NONE OF THOSE THINGS HAPPENED. The universe was created with the big bang, cosmic dust and stuff, dinosaurs evolution, la-di-da. That, in my opinion, is the true history. And none of that stuff appears in the Bible. So, HISTORY history doesn't appear in the Bible. Now, there is SOME fact to it- there probably WAS a Jesus- but he wasn't crucified and come back to life and all that stuff. There's some actual truth in the Bible, but most is just myth. FROM AN ATHEIST STANDPOINT (as not to offend you Christians :)).

This conversation actually reminded me of something said on Red Dwarf.. "In the news today, a missing page from the Bible was found. It reads, 'To my dear Candy. All Characters in the book are fictional and do not represent...'. Christians have condemned the paper, saying it to be heresay." That always makes me laugh.

Right now I want a chocolate cupcake with nutella and the song 'Falling Down' by Atreyu... Bye!

Most Christians--at least most Christians in more sensible denominations such as the Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, the Orthodoxy, Methodism, as well as several others--are allowed to interpret the Bible contextually--in other words, interpret the stories not as literal, historical truth by interpret is as spiritually and morally true. In other words, since evolution is considered to be proven by science (Those who say "it's just a theory" are confusing the word theory with hypothesis. A hypothesis is an educated guess; a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena; and a law is a statement that generalizes across a set of conditions), most [sensible] Christians understand evolution as the process through which God developed the wide range of life on Earth; therefore DISBELIEVING the Biblical creation myth and that intelligent design crap where God drastically changed stuff at a random interval.

Christians however have to believe everything in the Nicene Creed (theotokos (sp), the trinity, Jesus suffered and died on the cross, and rose from the dead in fulfillment of the scriptures) , otherwise they are not Christians, they are cultists disguised as Christians... "wolves in sheep's clothing" I think the Bible would say. Beware false prophets.

Your statement that the Bible has not been affected by history is untrue. While not 100% correct, the story of Noah is probably a retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh which probably is an exaggerated story about a Sumerian King who, with his family and farm animals, survived an unusually large flood of the Euphrates river. Also, some accounts of battles and wars with the Philistines, Canaanites, and Babylonians are at least partially true. Moses probably didn't exist. Jesus almost definitely did--his existence proven by the writings of several first and second century Roman Historians (despite what Shaun says).

Red Dwarf is hilarious :D I liked the Cat's bible that you read by smell... and Lister was God.

[Gandalf the White]

I am me and me alone. NO ONE CARES ABOUT GOD. Aaron Dunn is the anti christ.

[The Elusive Jihadist]

Religion is an effective tool to control the masses, for why else would you have verses like these?

"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."

2 Kings 2:23-24

[Rafael Domination]

Ahahah. Well that's one way to look at things. But first, you should take into consideration that Prophets were usually the direct link from the people to God, also acting as his instruments of Divine Punishment or Communication. Disrespecting one often brought down God's wrath. And those who think they can challenge God deserve it. But that's olden times. I would stop living in the old testament if I were you. Catch up. In the New Testament, which spans today as well, you don't see pastors calling down meteors on people who literally swear at them. That's because their roles have changed. Prophets don't exist anymore. Pastor may still be instruments of God, but all they are allowed to do is preach what's written in the Bible, love and help. If they're doing anything else in the ministry besides that, well, that's a no-no.

Oh, and The Bible holds those verses to state how important God views his Prophets. Control is not the goal. You'll find that there are key verses in the Bible that state directly or indirectly that individuals can and must choose whether they want to believe or not, and that Christians should not force stuff down anyones throats.

^^

[Crocolyle]

Control may not be the goal of religion, but it is one of it's functions, regardless if any religion is true, regardless if God actually exists. As an institution run by humans, whether or not divinely inspired, religion functions primarily to instill conformity and to socialize believers and adherents in a particular faith.

I. This is achieved through both formal and informal social control.

A. There are clear examples of formal social control (social control implemented through laws and rules) found in the Bible such as the ten commandments, the majority of Leviticus, and there are several rules an commandments in the New Testament, as well. These rules often have clear punishments, some formerly politically tied (like stoning adulterers and disobedient children), though because of the separation of church and state in the West, religions merely can excommunicate violators of rules, which still is a type of punishment.

B. Informal social control is also used. This can be anything as simple as rolling your eyes at someone who believes differently than you to verbally blasting someone who has different beliefs or morals, whether or not it's your intention to change the person's beliefs. To call someone immoral often has the affect to alienate the person and might have the affect to make the person conform only so they're not made fun of.

C. Deviants, such as homosexuals, murderers, atheists, abortion advocates, infidels, are often stigmatized or labelled as sinners. While you can say, "but it's not the religion's goal to stigmatize people" or "religions shouldn't do that," they do. Anyone who is a sinner or does something against a religion, is stigmatized by that religion.

II. Religion serves an educational role--which means it has the latent (i. e. not necessarily intended) function to make people conform.

A. By telling people the rules and beliefs of a faith, those teaching the faith are telling its adherents what to believe and how to behave.

B. Sets up standards of behavior

C. Develops Procedures to follow (You have to go to church on Sunday. You have to go to confession. You have to perform sacraments. Etc.)

Any kind of made-made or at least man-run community, group, or institution is meant to bring about conformity and to socialize its members. Even this site uses formal and, more frequently, informal social control to control the behavior of other members. This can be seen particularly used on the Literature page where people point out the flaws in people's writing in the hopes they will conform to an arbitrarily decided set of writing rules.

[Rafael Domination]

Agreed, and while I don't have all the answers to the 'grey' areas of the matter, I do have have an opinion towards the more 'black and white' ones. Control in the right doses and the right KIND of control is needed. Humans establish laws themselves without any help from religion to 'control' the masses. But one will notice that even with that 'control', individuals still have the freedom of choice to conform or not, and that the control is all that, put plainly, tight. The government places laws to control murder. That's good control. Some governments want to control peoples' minds, as do some people who twist religion and God to their own benefits. That's bad control. Now, the issue is, with some people, is who gets to draw the line.

And the thing is, in my opinion, anything pertaining to the Bible or such is really control. Even when the Ten Commandments were set, the children of Israel were capable of murder, lies, stealing, and such. God didn't force them or use his little remote control. Naturally, there were consequences, and those cannot be avoided. But there was no 'direct' control. As such, I prefer that religion GUIDES people, and the ones that CONTROL are the ones definitely to be avoided. If God wanted CONTROL, he would have made us robots. I mean, please. :rolleyes:

[Elvenscholar]

I don't believe in god. I believe that the idea of God was created by those who did not understand everything around them. They created the idea of God as an explanation to these conundrums. Now that we do understand most things, and are understanding more and more every day, I don't see why people need to continue to believe in a 'higher power'.
I understand that since we have believed in a type of 'higher power' for so many years, it has become almost instinct for most. But when people justify their belief by saying that without a 'higher power' they would not have survived certain situations throughout their life, they are simply attributing their own successes to something else, which is foolish.

[Andy]

People still believe in higher powers because there are still questions which science has not been able to answer. Big questions that make human existence more plausible, like "Where did the idea of morality and caring for the weak come from, in a survival-of-the-fittest world?" "How did life originate?" "What happens after death?" And others.

Science doesn't have clear-cut answers, but religions do, even if unproven. And their answers usually compliment each other, forming a complete theory which people believe in.