The Golden Compass: Literature & Religion

[Shaun]

So, the movie for The Golden Compass is out and religious folks are having a fit because the books and the movie all sort of bash organized religion. What do you think about all these? This isn't an argument, just a discussion about Pullman's influence and whether there is any merit in the Church's attack on his books.

[Andy]

Regarding the books, I've been reading a lot of articles about them lately, and I don't like what I'm hearing. While I haven't read the books, I've seen enough excerpts and plot summaries to decide that they are blatantly anti-Christian. From the identical ranks from the Catholic Church and in his book, to listing the various names of the "God" in his books (which include "Yahweh"), to killing God and showing him as weak, it's obvious that the attacks in his book are intentional. He's also made a short film in which young atheists speak about why they converted to atheism, and his books seem to be merely an extension of that agenda, to convert children to atheism.

But what really annoys me is that he's targeting children with his message, like he's trying to brainwash them. The short film is for children, his books are children's literature, the movie is being directed towards children. It's really shameful in my opinion, that he directs his message at people who are often too naieve to realize what he's doing.

The movie, while it's toned down the anti-Christian message and made its message a more general one about the evils of big powerful hateful groups, it's no better. A lot of parents, if their children like the movie, will go and buy the books for Christmas, and that's where the real anti-Christian message is. It's like the movie is trying to deceive parents into thinking the series is good.

So, yeah, I'm against it. It bashes my religion and targets children with a message of hate towards Catholicism.

[Rafael Domination]

Ahahah! :D

I knew this topic was coming up soon...

Erm...personally I think people should treat it like a bug...

Since is nothing but fiction anyway, they should ignore it. It's that, or squash it physically...but that would be too cruel.

I think the guys just lacks respect...

We Christian folks shouldn't be blamed of having a fit over it, though. It's only natural we defend ourselves. It's not we killed the author anyway...so, the non-christians should just cool it if we voice our opinions...

[Nyx]

He did nothing wrong. I don't think he was being disrespectful in anyway, he wrote his opinion or maybe an opinion that wasn't even his, isn't that what literature is about? I, myself, don't like the last book but that's just my opinion. I don't see why he should be judged as a good or bad author because of it.

Yes, he is targeting kids, so what? He has a message, maybe something that seems important to him, and he's sharing the message with the people who affect the future the most. I don't see his books as forcing kids to not believe in God, he is merely challenging the idea. If the reader's belief is strong enough they won't change their belief, if their belief is not so strong but still powerful, then they will question God and find out if they want to believe or not. If their beleif is not strong, then yes they will be effected, but if a kid decideds to be an atheist just because of the books, then he is obviously gullible and that can't be blamed on Pullman.

[Steak-Ums]

I disagree Nix, he made a blantent attack. Made it clear by adding Christians to it. He could've just left the C word out, but he put it in, and then didn't remain neutral afterwards, he had to glorify the witches.

[Shaun]

Okay, so let me get this straight. The problem for religious folks with The Golden Compass is that it does the same thing to children as parents do with religion to their children? If books that challenge common ideas shouldn't be written, or shouldn't have influence on children, then neither should religion, since it too is used as a brainwashing tool. The difference is you believe in god and the other side doesn't. Parents shove religion down their kid's throats in a lot of worse ways than a book does, since kids can't escape their parents.
So really, all the arguments against The Golden Compass can be used against organized religion too, which is ironic because that is exactly what Pullman is criticizing.

Nyx is right though. If your belief is strong to begin with a book like The Golden Compass or any of the others in His Dark Materials shouldn't make your belief falter. It's only when your belief isn't solid that you begin to question. When you oppress literature that offers these questions to kids you just create mindless automatons. Expose kids to things, let them ask questions, and answer them the best you can. Kids aren't retarded. They figure out that Santa and the Easter Bunny aren't real far before you realize they know, and they're smart enough to play it off for a few years to keep getting Santa presents or go egg hunting. I think kids can handle criticism of the beliefs laid down by their parents, imposed upon them because they can't really say no. It just makes them ask questions and if you don't want your kids asking questions buy a robot instead. It's easier and less stressful.

[Nyx]

I disagree Nix, he made a blantent attack. Made it clear by adding Christians to it. He could've just left the C word out, but he put it in, and then didn't remain neutral afterwards, he had to glorify the witches.

First of all, it's Nyx. Second, of course he made it clear, that's his objective, why would he write something unclear? His opinion is strong and he wants to prove so, he can do that whichever way he wants to: welcome to the art of literature.

[Andy]

FHis opinion is strong and he wants to prove so, he can do that whichever way he wants to: welcome to the art of literature.
The problem is, he didn't prove anything so much as slam it. The Church in the books is a very corrupt group which seeks to rip the daemon-souls from children. It's not based on facts at all, it's just a mindless attack.

[Rafael Domination]

While he has the freedom of speech, so do other people...

If it's okay for him to make stuff like that, then it's okay for people to critisize him, and people to critisize the people who bashed on him, and people to attack those who critisized people for critisizing him....do you see what he just set off? You can't shut people up...you can shut one author up, though...

[Shaun]

Andy...that's because it's a fiction book. It's not real. It's set in a fantasy world...since when does having a fantasy world mean you can't make a valid point using facts?

Raf: sure, you can criticize him all you want, but if you're going to do it, do it for valid reasons.

And no, when you shut up one author, you just prove that your beliefs aren't strong enough to begin with. Shutting up Pullman and preventing kids from reading his books, removing them from libraries, etc. only serves to prove that whoever is making that happen doesn't believe with enough conviction to make it real. People who are secure in their faith don't give a flying rat's behind that the books bash religion.
And the books make valid points about the corruption of the Church. If it makes a valid point, then it makes sense why it is so popular.

[Nyx]

The problem is, he didn't prove anything so much as slam it. The Church in the books is a very corrupt group which seeks to rip the daemon-souls from children. It's not based on facts at all, it's just a mindless attack.

It's not mindless, there's thought behind how they're taking souls from the children, many believe that is what organized religion does.

While he has the freedom of speech, so do other people...

If it's okay for him to make stuff like that, then it's okay for people to critisize him, and people to critisize the people who bashed on him, and people to attack those who critisized people for critisizing him....do you see what he just set off? You can't shut people up...you can shut one author up, though...


I do see that he set off something great! Pullman got kids thinking about things that they would usually never question, he got parents thinking about why they want their child(eren) to believe in god, and he showed the leaders of organized religions that they are still powerful writers who can show a strong opinion and have the power to challenge the authority.

[Rafael Domination]

I think we christians should use them as a vaccine...give answers to his challenges while maintaining an air of peace and knowledge about us...that way, we defend ourselves without irritating people...

When I meant 'to shut him up', I forgot to say with logic...not burning stakes :D

[Nyx]

I think we christians should use them as a vaccine...give answers to his challenges while maintaining an air of peace and knowledge about us...that way, we defend ourselves without irritating people...

When I meant 'to shut him up', I forgot to say with logic...not burning stakes :D

That'd be great....I think if christians or any organized religions can prove him wrong then they should go ahead and try, because that is what is great about his literature, it has started a challenge.

[Shaun]

Logic and religion? You realize that is a fundamental paradox right? No offense, but the two rarely, if ever, work well together.

But anyway, that's the whole point of writers like Pullman though Raf. If you're secure in your beliefs, and you have kids, you should be able to let them read the book or watch the movie and when they come back with questions, you'll have good answers for them. You can't force people to believe in something. If that were so I'd be a Bible-toting religious nut right now. But I'm not. I use my brain. I believe in different things :P

[Rafael Domination]

sigh...paradox...the best of both worlds...:rolleyes:

Anyhoo...

[Nyx]

Logic and religion? You realize that is a fundamental paradox right? No offense, but the two rarely, if ever, work well together.

But anyway, that's the whole point of writers like Pullman though Raf. If you're secure in your beliefs, and you have kids, you should be able to let them read the book or watch the movie and when they come back with questions, you'll have good answers for them. You can't force people to believe in something. If that were so I'd be a Bible-toting religious nut right now. But I'm not. I use my brain. I believe in different things :P


Exactly, His Dark Materials made me ask a lot of questions, even though I am not christian, a lot of the organized religion stuff applied and I was confused about somethings that were said about God. My dad answered some questions, I read a couple of articles and skimmed a couple of chapters in some books and my questions were answered:D Obviously though, I was younger and right now I have more question but that doesn't make the books or movie anymore of a threat.

[Rafael Domination]

It is kinda like a sting, though...no one can blame people for responding...

[Shaun]

No, but we can blame people for reacting stupidly.

[Rafael Domination]

Glad we agree on things for once :D

[Nyx]

I agree too, people can respond, and it does sting. But that is why they should take a big relaxing breath before they respond so they don`t come off as closed-minded:)