View Full Version : Literature and the Points System
For those of you familiar with posting and critiquing literature on YWO, this thread is for you.
The points system isn't perfect. Neither is the fact that critiques and submissions are done the exact same way as normal posts. It was made way back when I didn't know as much about programming as I do now, so we're in a better position to do something about it.
What I'd like to do is make it perfect. Make it fair, make it convenient. Remove anything that can make it frustrating, while making sure people still do their fair share of critiques.
If you have any ideas, no matter how unlikely you think it will happen, post them here. If you can think of any features or adjustments that would make it better, please post them here.
One feature I have in mind is prose formatting, such as paragraph indenting and spacing between paragraphs - which will be done automatically. Thus, prose will look more like the left than the right:
http://i28.tinypic.com/34e2lba.jpg
Shaun
08-28-2009, 10:44 PM
Well, something that would be good to do is change the points structure. I think it's too easy to get enough points to post. We need to get some sort of two for one system going (or three for one). That way crits are more frequent.
Carraka
08-28-2009, 10:45 PM
When I edit in a new enough section of the story that I think I need to lose ten points, my garbage post to lose those ten points shouldn't be the color of the posts with story.
And I'd like to be able to respond in-thread to an author's comments without getting more critique points for emptiness. All I can think of, for now ... Maybe there could be a way to change the colors, between story and non-story, because even after you fix the system (assuming you want to), all my previous posts will still be all wrong.
Welcome back.
Starry
08-29-2009, 02:04 AM
Yay! It's an Andy!
Love the actually-being-able-to-do-indenting thing. I wish I could steal it for my school's forum, but the coding would probably be too difficult for me to manage.
I think I suggested this a while ago, but I think it would be good if there was a minimum character or word limit for actually receiving points for critiques at all, to keep people from doing one-liners. I have no idea what that limit should be, but enough to assure at least a paragraph response at the end.
Also, I don't know what the current options are for this, but if there would be some way for the author/creator of the thread to flag a critique that they think is unacceptable, so they didn't have to go through the trouble of PMing a mod, that would be nice. It would probably help the mods timewise, too.
And of course there's still my suggestion (though I don't really think it would help that much) that when a new person joins the site, they automatically get directed to the rules list/FAQ so that maybe they'll actually read them before complaining about not understanding anything.
Wow, I complain a lot. Oh well.
Bowie20049
08-29-2009, 02:11 AM
I think increasing the amount of text needed to gain points should be raised. Or you could also decrease the maximum points received by half, so then people will have to critique more than once to post.
MattCKT
08-29-2009, 11:47 PM
ah that's my piece you used in the top left ^-^ that style indenting would be nice!
I definately think that getting a straight two critiques for one post system would work nicely in getting a better critique:post ratio on the site, but I imagine it'd be hard to do that whilst having the lengths of critiques still count towards points earned? (That said I don't know anything about coding) .
Carraka
08-30-2009, 12:10 PM
If I can have indenting, I don't want spaces between paragraphs. Very recently, I finally figured out how to convert between no-space and space, but I don't mind losing the hassle. So I would hope you can make them separately enabled. I'd love to banish journalism spacing from my mind, because otherwise it's just not healthy.
When I edit in a new enough section of the story that I think I need to lose ten points, my garbage post to lose those ten points shouldn't be the color of the posts with story.
I'd like to fix it so that we won't even have a need for those "garbage posts"
I think I suggested this a while ago, but I think it would be good if there was a minimum character or word limit for actually receiving points for critiques at all, to keep people from doing one-liners. I have no idea what that limit should be, but enough to assure at least a paragraph response at the end.
What I think will work is having some sort of benchmarks. Where points will no longer be proportional to word counts. For example (EXAMPLE):300-599 words = 1 point
600-999 words = 1.5 points
1000+ words = 2 points
Also, I don't know what the current options are for this, but if there would be some way for the author/creator of the thread to flag a critique that they think is unacceptable, so they didn't have to go through the trouble of PMing a mod, that would be nice. It would probably help the mods timewise, too.
There's always the flag button in the bottom-left corner of the post.
And of course there's still my suggestion (though I don't really think it would help that much) that when a new person joins the site, they automatically get directed to the rules list/FAQ so that maybe they'll actually read them before complaining about not understanding anything.I am considering having a "Help" link in the next design update, and a smaller link for rules.
I definately think that getting a straight two critiques for one post system would work nicely in getting a better critique:post ratio on the site, but I imagine it'd be hard to do that whilst having the lengths of critiques still count towards points earned? (That said I don't know anything about coding) .
No, it shouldn't be too hard.
Starry
08-30-2009, 05:59 PM
There's always the flag button in the bottom-left corner of the post.
I knew there was one of those somewhere!
But I'm thinking less of a "troll/ad/other rulebreaking things" flag (which I think that one is supposed to be) and more of a "this person should be reprimanded/taught how to do crits for real because they're doing it" wrong sort of alert.
I knew there was one of those somewhere!
But I'm thinking less of a "troll/ad/other rulebreaking things" flag (which I think that one is supposed to be) and more of a "this person should be reprimanded/taught how to do crits for real because they're doing it" wrong sort of alert.
Oh, I see.
Good suggestion. I'll try to implement it.
You know how you sometimes critique different things different ways? For example, some submissions you just want to give a paragraph or two of general suggestions. Others you want to type comments within the story and be very specific. Sound familiar?
I think the next literature update should take that into consideration. Similar to critiquecircle.com, I'd like to offer several critique formats, and you can choose which one you want for each critique.
For example, this format would be for general comments - where you wouldn't need to quote the entire thing you're critiquing. At the same time, you wouldn't need to keep scrolling between the writing and your critique.
http://i29.tinypic.com/27xpic2.jpg
Thoughts?
Bowie20049
08-31-2009, 04:36 PM
That would save a lot of trouble.
Testing out some more potential tools. This one will automatically copy selected text into your critique box, and format it, too.
http://i26.tinypic.com/16bwl82.jpg
Are there any other tools like this you would find useful?
Shaun
09-02-2009, 07:06 PM
I can't think of any, but that looks pretty cool thus far!
Rouge
09-02-2009, 09:22 PM
That sounds absolutely awesome.
If you'd like to play around with the progress so far, you can do so here (http://www.youngwritersonline.net/images/web20/generalcrit.html).
There is some default prose in the box, but it cannot post crits.
This is the second critique style I'm working on, called an inline critique.
Instead of quoting an entire post and typing all your comments inside it, you can simply click a paragraph and its own text box will appear.
If you comment on a paragraph, it will turn blue, so you can easily determine which ones you've already commented on.
http://www.youngwritersonline.net/images/web20/inline/inlinecrit.html
Bowie20049
09-06-2009, 07:00 PM
I like this one too! Is there a way to use both systems or something, since people critique in different styles.
I like this one too! Is there a way to use both systems or something, since people critique in different styles.
Yes, when you critique something, you'll be able to choose which one you want to do.
I'm working on a third type which is more like a questionnaire - and should be useful for new members to understand what a good critique is like.
Starry
09-06-2009, 10:05 PM
Hm, it's interesting, but I feel like it's a bit complicated, especially if you're like me and pretty much comment on everything. We can just keep doing line-by-line the old way, right? Because I don't really see the point of copy-and-pasting 75% of the text when I can just stay within it and keep the continuity of the piece.
Shaun
09-06-2009, 10:13 PM
My understanding is that there will be multiple types of critiquing, with this paragraph style as one of them. So you should be able to do it the way you usually do it without issue.
Hm, it's interesting, but I feel like it's a bit complicated, especially if you're like me and pretty much comment on everything. We can just keep doing line-by-line the old way, right? Because I don't really see the point of copy-and-pasting 75% of the text when I can just stay within it and keep the continuity of the piece.
I'll try to have an option that's very similar to the current way, but it might separate the paragraphs more so it's easier to critique.
Starry
09-06-2009, 11:31 PM
I'll try to have an option that's very similar to the current way, but it might separate the paragraphs more so it's easier to critique.
Yay! That would be good. Really, if it was just like critiquing within a Word document, that would be pretty much perfect. It's just the cutting out little bits to talk about and stuff that's too complicated for me. :)
Yay! That would be good. Really, if it was just like critiquing within a Word document, that would be pretty much perfect. It's just the cutting out little bits to talk about and stuff that's too complicated for me. :)
I'll try. I also find critiquing in a Word document easy.
This is the critique selection page. It's fully functional. Other than purely visual aspects, I don't think I'll have to edit it again.^^
http://i29.tinypic.com/24v5svt.jpg
Bowie20049
09-07-2009, 03:10 AM
I love it Andy! I would hug you to death if I saw you.
But I'm too young to die.... :rolleyes:
Carraka
09-07-2009, 02:49 PM
I don't like hugging, so I guess my feelings shall be best conveyed with a sharp knife.
... I think I can find you.
The first steps for the Document Critique are done. It's the easiest to do, since it's so similar to how YWO does it now. When it's done, you won't need those [quote] tags anymore, and you can simply choose a color and type your comments anywhere.
Also, a blank line is added between paragraphs so it's easier to tell them apart.
Document Critique (http://i27.tinypic.com/2ng51d3.jpg)
This is the critique selection page. It's fully functional. Other than purely visual aspects, I don't think I'll have to edit it again.^^
http://i29.tinypic.com/24v5svt.jpg
Really really love the work (if everything is functional =p), but is there any way you could disable the template option for the poetry/lyrics sections. I haven't seen the template, so I'm not sure how its structured, but I'm assuming that it has different focuses than you would see in a poetry critique. Either that or I could make a seperate template for poetry if you want. Regardless, I'm making some assumptions about it, so any more detail on that option would be great.
Really really love the work (if everything is functional =p)
Yes, the critique selection page is fully functional, including the word count.
but is there any way you could disable the template option for the poetry/lyrics sections. I haven't seen the template, so I'm not sure how its structured, but I'm assuming that it has different focuses than you would see in a poetry critique. Either that or I could make a seperate template for poetry if you want. Regardless, I'm making some assumptions about it, so any more detail on that option would be great.I intend to have different questions depending on the category. For example, a Story Template Critique will have questions about the beginning, ending, conflict, characters, setting, dialogue, etc. Poetry and the other forums will have their own templates.
I plan to make a thread asking for help making these questions, but I wanted to get this other stuff out of the way first.
This is a list of story questions I made a long time ago. A Story Template Critique will look something like this. It's not final, but any help with this one or others would be greatly appreciated. :)
Beginning: Does the beginning of the story grab your attention and interest? Do you want to read more?
Conflict: Do you see a conflict in this story, either internal or external? Are characters at war with their feelings or options? Do the goals of different characters clash?
Plot: Is this plot clear and believable? Do your questions about it get answered, eventually?
Setting: Do you understand what is happening? Are most of the five senses used?
Characters: Do the characters seem alive? Do you sympathize with the main character? Do you care about what is happening in the story? Do the characters change as the story progresses?
Dialogue: Is the dialogue believable? Is there too much or too little of it?
Show vs Tell: Is the author giving you more information than necessary? Is the author telling too much and now showing enough?
Spelling: Was the spelling and grammar okay?
Overall: What impression, if any, did the story leave on you?
Yes, the critique selection page is fully functional, including the word count.
I intend to have different questions depending on the category. For example, a Story Template Critique will have questions about the beginning, ending, conflict, characters, setting, dialogue, etc. Poetry and the other forums will have their own templates.
Great, then, without an asterik, great work. Thats all I wanted to know =]
Before submitting a critique, you'll be able to check how many words long it is, and therefore how many points it would receive.
http://i28.tinypic.com/2071185.jpg
I'm actually relieved this is over. The textbox YWO uses is really advanced, and learning how to grab stuff out of it wasn't easy.
Here's the current Document Critique look:
http://i27.tinypic.com/27yoisz.jpg
As you can see it's almost finished!
The "Crit Word Count" button in the bottom left causes the box at the top to appear. It only counts the text of your critique, leaving the rest alone.
listophergreene
09-15-2009, 05:32 PM
Here's the current Document Critique look:
http://i27.tinypic.com/27yoisz.jpg
As you can see it's almost finished!
The "Crit Word Count" button in the bottom left causes the box at the top to appear. It only counts the text of your critique, leaving the rest alone.
Sweet! I know that story...
I want to discuss some things with Shaun regarding specific aspects of these changes. These things take work, and I'd rather not spend hours doing something only to tear it down after. So for now, no updates.
Shaun
09-17-2009, 02:26 PM
A lot of awesome work being done here! Keep it up, Andy. YWO is going to hit new heights with this system. I knew having you gone for months at a time was a good idea :P.
Okay then. As I said before, the Document Critique is almost done. I'd like to have one more finished before I put them both up.
With the coming update, you'll be able to check your word count anytime.
But just in case you forget, or in case there's a new member who's just getting used to things, you'll get this message whenever you click the "Submit Critique" button. And you can simply cancel.
http://i36.tinypic.com/288cprm.jpg
So, to give an estimate of how much work is left:
Document Critique: 90% done
Blank "From Scratch" Critique: 40% done
This is what the Blank Critique format looks like so far:
http://i33.tinypic.com/255qdkm.jpg
It's designed for critiques that don't quote the submission a lot.
Right above the typing area, is the submission, so you can easily switch between viewing the author's text and viewing your critique. You can change its height, and also the style it's displayed in (single spaced, double-spaced, etc).
I will add a button later that lets you select a portion of the author's text, and copy it into your critique, within QUOTE tags.
Simmi
09-19-2009, 04:36 PM
Ooh, it looks nice, Andy.
The Blank Critique setup is almost complete. This screenshot demonstrates some of the paragrah formatting options you can use while reading the submission.
http://i33.tinypic.com/o56kp2.jpg
The Line Formatting settings are:
None: Everything will be bunched together. Probably better for poetry than prose
Space paragraphs: There will be a blank line in between paragraphs
Indent Paragraphs: Paragraphs will be indented - like you're reading a book
Space Indent Paragraphs: Paragraphs are indented and also separated by blank lines
Space Lines: Paragraphs are indented, all lines are separated by blank space
Also, the Submission Height settings are:
Small: The box containing the submission is 2 inches high, with a scroll bar
Medium: The box is 4 inches high
Full: The box is as long as the submission, with no scroll bar needed
I am trying to make this new points system as newb-friendly as possible, since they must quickly learn about doing good critiques, the points system, the types of critiques being offered, etc.
Besides some help links, I went and added some visuals for the critique selection page.
http://i33.tinypic.com/5ma1oz.jpg
To-Do List as of September 20
Everything else is complete! :)
Done:
Critique Selection page
Inline/Document Critique page
Blank/Simple Critique page
Word counters
"Separate Paragraphs" button
For Literature Forums:
Bring back the Quick Reply/Comment box (50% done)
Add Critique and Comment buttons (50% done)
For Literature Threads:
Make it easier to tell the difference between the author's submission, and comments, and critiques (0% done)
Allow the author to lock and delete their own threads (extremely easy)
One submission per thread (each submission will have its own thread) - (0% done)
One critique per submission
For Critique Reply Pages:
Add "Copy Text" button to easily quote text in the author's submission
Add Comments (anyone, including the author, can post comments. But unlike critiques, they don't earn points) (0% done)
Update the Literature submission page
Miscellaneous:
Update all Critique/Literature/Points FAQ pages
Lastly, test everything
I think the only big adjustments are the one-submission per thread and the no-editing submission rules - which I've discussed thoroughly with Shaun. These will only affect the author, and if anyone wants to discuss them, please do so.
The goal of this coming update is to fix everyone's complaints with the current points system ASAP. Afterwards, I have some other updates planned, such as adding one or two more critique types, and creating a system that will let members easily organize their threads into folders, which can be viewed by anyone.
Starry
09-21-2009, 04:13 AM
Wait, no editing posts at all? Not even for stupid typos or something really basic? I think that's a bit extreme. I get that you want people to pay more points for totally revamping a story, but for people who do minor revisions as they go along, cutting out that option is a bit obnoxious. And if you have people constantly saying "fix this," you just have to respond, "It's fixed on my current draft, but this isn't it, sorry"?
Wait, no editing posts at all? Not even for stupid typos or something really basic? I think that's a bit extreme. I get that you want people to pay more points for totally revamping a story, but for people who do minor revisions as they go along, cutting out that option is a bit obnoxious. And if you have people constantly saying "fix this," you just have to respond, "It's fixed on my current draft, but this isn't it, sorry"?
Hmm...Maybe there could be a period in which it's still editable. Like, one or two weeks after it's posted. How does that sound?
EDIT: On second thought, we could prevent people from critiquing the same thing twice. That shouldn't be possible anyway. But if the author makes big changes, then they'll have to post a new thread, or else they won't be able to be critiqued by people who already did the first version.
Carraka
09-21-2009, 10:03 AM
-sigh- Well, I guess I could post it in parts.
-sigh- Well, I guess I could post it in parts.
I am working on a system that will let members add threads to folders. So you could have a folder for your story containing all its parts, listed all on one page. Everyone would be able to view it, and the threads themselves will contain links to the folder.
Okay, I did a rundown of everything left to do, and am happy to say that all the hard stuff is finished.
As I said before, the biggest adjustment is probably that to submit new literature, you will have to start a new thread. No more spoiler-ing additions or junk posts to subtract the necessary amount of points.
I know that the ability to see all the stuff for a single work of literature in one place is desirable, but the Portfolio Search (http://www.youngwritersonline.net/showthread.php?p=90517#post90517) should be a suitable short-term solution.
Ninjatrone
09-30-2009, 07:31 PM
.....You can actually indent? Whenever I hit the tab key, the page scroller goes crazy, and nothing has changed.
.....You can actually indent? Whenever I hit the tab key, the page scroller goes crazy, and nothing has changed.
No, you can't indent. No text box on the internet can indent. :P
I'm working on a feature that will let you view someone's writing as indented.
Quick update: I'm currently swamped with projects and midterms, but there's not much left to do.
Just some rambling for anyone interested... :)
I think the most difficult part of doing this new system is the word counts for inline critiques.
When you look at an inline critique, the words are easy to spot. They're visual. Programs aren't. The code I'm writing has to look for all those tags and count the words in them. Sounds easy, but what if you've got something like this?
[COLOR=Red] word
If the code isn't careful, then it'll count that word three times. And if it doesn't skip over those color tags, then it will count the tags themselves as words.
Also difficult is that I need to write three programs, all of which simply do a word count. Why?
The first two programs count words anytime you want while you're doing a critique, by pressing a button.
The first one does this for the standard editor (where all smilies and tags appear as text)
The second one does this for the WYSIWYG editor (where smilies and other things will actually appear the way they will be displayed once you submit your reply).
Both editors use different methods to display their text, so two programs are necessary.
The third one, though, will count words only after your reply is submitted, after both of the above formats are converted into the same format. While the first two are stored in your browser, this third one is stored on YWO's server. This means it is secure and impossible to tamper with, whereas the first two could be easily modified by someone who wants to edit the way their browser displays pages.
The other hassle is making sure all the programs will produce the exact same word count. Switching from the standard editor to the WYSIWYG editor should not result in a different word count. And if the third program (in a different programming language) isn't a perfect replica of the other two, then you might check your count, see 300 words, then submit it and discover YWO counted only 299 words, and possibly be cheated out of points if 300 was a benchmark.
At the moment, all three programs work perfectly, except for a few small things like quotes.
And it's reasons like this why this is taking so long. :)
Simmi
10-14-2009, 03:18 AM
That sounds positively confusing. But I read the whole thing~ Good luck with making sure everything works. And thanks in advance for trying to make the site cooler than it already is.
That sounds positively confusing. But I read the whole thing~ Good luck with making sure everything works. And thanks in advance for trying to make the site cooler than it already is.
Sure. I just want to try and explain why it's been weeks and it still isn't done. The current points system has flaws, mostly because said flaws involve difficult solutions.
Okay, another update. The point and word calculators are done. ^^ All that remain are some minor things which affect user permissions and posting buttons, a lot of which are just to make the moderators' jobs easier and prevent some techniques that could be used to earn undeserved points.
Show error message if someone tries to critique something they already critiqued, or if the author tries to critique their own work
Add some warning messages if someone tries to critique something that's very old, or if their browser's settings are not allowing for full use of the critique buttons
etc...
jcsk88
10-21-2009, 03:29 PM
I'm getting rather excited with all the changes going on to this site right now. I'm not sure if this is the right place to raise this, but I'd like to suggest that some weight be given to the thanks received as well? Considering that a useful crit will almost surely be met with gratitude, I'd think this is another way to cultivate an actively critiquing culture. I have no idea how difficult that is to implement though... (sorry, computer illiterate).
I'm getting rather excited with all the changes going on to this site right now. I'm not sure if this is the right place to raise this, but I'd like to suggest that some weight be given to the thanks received as well? Considering that a useful crit will almost surely be met with gratitude, I'd think this is another way to cultivate an actively critiquing culture. I have no idea how difficult that is to implement though... (sorry, computer illiterate).
I'm not sure. In a future update I might make the thank-you icon easier to spot so more people will use the feature.
I will be happy to finally get this all done, though. I have a long list of other things I'd like to do for the site (the first two were the portfolio and Care to Crit updates), and doing them will be comparatively easier than changing the points system. :)
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