What do you think of the Stimulus Package?

[Shaun]

Specifically, I mean the new one, however discussion of both the previous package and this new one are more than welcome.

What are your thoughts? Do you think it's a good idea? Do you disagree with parts and what would you do differently if you could change things? If you hate it, tell us why. If you are a big supporter, same thing.

It's been a while since we've had a heated debate around these parts, so let's get started!

[Diocletian]

https://www.aconnellgroup.com/barack-obama-plan.jpg

It's simply politics as usual; throw in some Keynesian garbage and you have massive government spending with no way to pay it back. Where are we going to find the money in the next century to pay back the $1.3 trillion we just spent? By sticking it to the wealthy as usual and forcing them to bear the brunt of the nation's collective thoughtlessness?

Typical Democrats, thinking of short-term solutions but blank on what to do in the long term. That's what the party has always been run on and that's the God it will always worship.

[Shaun]

For the record, this is not an "Democrat" problem, it's a political problem in general. Republicans are just as guilty of thinking in the short term, and the first stimulus package was fronted by the last administration, with little to know requirements placed on the receivers of that money (which is why we have the big stink over the bonuses and other such lovely things).
I should have clarified: this thread is not for arguments between Dems or Reps, or even why one is crap and the other is great (and vice versa). This is more for a discussion of the stimulus package in general.

[Diocletian]

Eh, I dislike the modern manifestation of the Republican Party just as I dislike Democrats, so there's no partisanship going on here.

It just happens to be that wasteful stimulus spending recently has been a direct result of the Democrats in Congress. Guess how many Republicans voted for the second stimulus package.

But yes, about the stimulus itself...it sucks. Want to hear more opinions before I elaborate.

[Crocolyle]

Not to rain on everyone's parade (or maybe to rain on everyone's parade), but probably none of us have a true understanding of economics or the economy, apart from a very basic level derived from a joke economy class in high school or a vague introductory lecture in college. While I'm sure you all listen to pundits and read bloggers with views comparable to your own, most of them aren't economists either and don't know what they're talking about.

I will say this: in the past couple weeks the Washington Post, which I read most days of the week, reported Obama saying the economy has been showing signs of improvement. This week J.P. Morgan and I think CitiGroup both reported growth. Bernanke, unlike anyone on this board, is a brilliant economist and probably has better ideas than any would-be pundit here.

[Shaun]

Not to rain on everyone's parade (or maybe to rain on everyone's parade), but probably none of us have a true understanding of economics or the economy, apart from a very basic level derived from a joke economy class in high school or a vague introductory lecture in college. While I'm sure you all listen to pundits and read bloggers with views comparable to your own, most of them aren't economists either and don't know what they're talking about.

I will say this: in the past couple weeks the Washington Post, which I read most days of the week, reported Obama saying the economy has been showing signs of improvement. This week J.P. Morgan and I think CitiGroup both reported growth. Bernanke, unlike anyone on this board, is a brilliant economist and probably has better ideas than any would-be pundit here.

Well this isn't really about whether we fully understand what is going on and more about what we think about the stimulus package in principle: who it's helping, who it's not, etc. It's more about personal interests in this rather than what we may not fully understand.

And CitiGroup showed improvements AFTER it received a crapload of money from the government, so in reality it's improvements did not pull it out of the negative. Besides: Do we get that money back? Or are tax payers stuck paying period? Is there any sort of requirement for these companies to pay back the government for the money it lent them? I don't know, but I've not heard anything of that sort, so if you know something, Croc, please fill me in. That's one of the big problems I have with the package: I don't see anything that tells me that we're getting that money back, that it's a loan, not a get-out-of-being-an-incompetent-asshole-free card...

[Crocolyle]

Well this isn't really about whether we fully understand what is going on and more about what we think about the stimulus package in principle: who it's helping, who it's not, etc. It's more about personal interests in this rather than what we may not fully understand.

Having an opinion doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about. You know that all over the country like a week or two ago, there were "tea parties" in protestation of high taxes, when tax was lower for 95% of the country. I mean, people are opinionated, but very ill-informed. Therefore, while it's good and dandy you all have opinions on a principle none of you know mucj about.

And CitiGroup showed improvements AFTER it received a crapload of money from the government, so in reality it's improvements did not pull it out of the negative. Besides: Do we get that money back? Or are tax payers stuck paying period? Is there any sort of requirement for these companies to pay back the government for the money it lent them? I don't know, but I've not heard anything of that sort, so if you know something, Croc, please fill me in. That's one of the big problems I have with the package: I don't see anything that tells me that we're getting that money back, that it's a loan, not a get-out-of-being-an-incompetent-asshole-free card...

Yeah the companies have to pay the government back in addition to following all sorts of other provisions; this week J. P. Morgan and Chrysler (whose bailout was $750 million) refused the government bailouts because they didn't want to deal with that.

I never said if I agree with the stimulus or not. I don't know enough to make an educated opinion. The only thing I can do is stand on a soap box and pontificate nonsense that I know very little about, so I don't have a stance.

[Shaun]

Having an opinion doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about. You know that all over the country like a week or two ago, there were "tea parties" in protestation of high taxes, when tax was lower for 95% of the country. I mean, people are opinionated, but very ill-informed. Therefore, while it's good and dandy you all have opinions on a principle none of you know mucj about.

Yup, fully aware of the idiocy of those tea parties (they are being affectionately called "tea baggers," which cracks me up). But there's a difference between being too stupid to realize that most of America got a tax cut and just not knowing all the tiny intricacies of the economy. We can have an intelligent discussion about the stimulus bills here without needing everything on the table. We can have a lot of personal opinions regarding who gets what money, etc., and whether we feel bailing out the banks is a good idea, yadda yadda. Then we can argue from different positions. That's more what I'm getting at here.

Yeah the companies have to pay the government back in addition to following all sorts of other provisions; this week J. P. Morgan and Chrysler (whose bailout was $750 million) refused the government bailouts because they didn't want to deal with that.

I never said if I agree with the stimulus or not. I don't know enough to make an educated opinion. The only thing I can do is stand on a soap box and pontificate nonsense that I know very little about, so I don't have a stance.

Well I guess those companies will die then. *shrugs* Chrysler has been on the fence for a while, so clearly their CEOs are idiots.