Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist Addendum [Archive]

Rafael Domination

11-30-2008, 06:10 AM

appleofmyeye

11-30-2008, 06:21 AM

Smart people burn.

I haven't seen them, but this kinda reminds me of the movie Wag the Dog.

Andy

11-30-2008, 02:33 PM

I don't know how many of you have seen this, but I feel that. . . you should see it.
If you have the time and the fast internet to watch two two hour long videos, then by all means, watch them.

Zeitgeist [First One]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kHhc67GopM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kHhc67GopM)

Zeitgeist Addendum [Second One]
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Zeitgeist&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#hl=en&emb=0&aq=f&q=zeitgeist%20the%20movie&src=3 (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Zeitgeist&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#hl=en&emb=0&aq=f&q=zeitgeist%20the%20movie&src=3)

They'll rock your world.

Note: I'm not enforcing any of this on anyone. I just think this stuff should be known.
I watched the first one. I don't know about the 9/11 and money parts (2 and 3), but I know for a fact that the first one is seriously lacking in evidence and solid reasoning, based on discussing it on several other forums a while back. It makes several conclusions based on faulty logic, and even coins some terms that nobody's ever even used ("cross of the zodiac", for example, which was an important "link" discussed in the video, only wields 200 Google results - most of which are linked to Zeitgeist either directly or indirectly).

This link I saved debunks the first part line-by-line:
http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/

Rouge

11-30-2008, 02:36 PM

Ugh. . . information overload too early in the morning.
-dies-
I'll read that later, Andy. Thanks though. ^^

Andy

11-30-2008, 04:29 PM

*Sorry, I'm still sore about the debate I had in school even if it was over a year ago. My class nemeses called me one among the mindless masses whose main defect is bliss in ignorance and therefore can be properly called stupid, hopeless and detrimental to progress. I told him that I would enjoy the day his twisted brain cells buckle under his self-inflicted stress to the point where he leaves the 'oh-so-EVIL' world by blowing a whole chunk of them out of his overheated skull with a gun. We both got sent out of class but it was dead-on worth it! :D*
Sure sounds like fun, if you phrase it that way. :laugh:

Ugh. . . information overload too early in the morning.
-dies-
I'll read that later, Andy. Thanks though. ^^
Information overload...reminds me of my exam tomorrow. :glare:

jordanisonfire

11-30-2008, 06:58 PM

Ah, sounds interesting. Just read the plot on Wikipedia.
As for Part 1, I'm an atheist existentialist anyway, so I don't need any other evidence that current religions are untrue. What we should be concentrating on is the LACK OF evidence that religions are putting forward to reinforce their faiths.

Part 2, I personally believed, before reading the plot, that 9/11 was orchestrated by the US government as a means to justify invasion of Iraq, calling attention to the fact that Iraq has a lot of oil in it and the US is a great oil consumer.

Part 3, I'm not really bothered about. Vietnam was a stupid war and the most stupid thing about it was the US got its ass kicked by half a country and even the whole country is like a tenth of its size, maybe more. Proof that ammunitions don't win the war, as the Vietcong used the jungle as their weapon and used stealth.

Shaun

12-06-2008, 09:19 PM

Oh I've kept my brain open through this thing (and its sequel) in school. The problem is that once the movie was over, I laughed everything off and a massive debate erupted. The movie makes it as if people in general lack brains. Honestly, I have enough brains to notice that things have been going fine so far and as long as the government doesn't force me to do anything, I'm fine with it. Well, I'm in Canada so I fine for the most part but still...I'd rather enjoy life than spend the rest of it brooding in some dark corner about the evils of society. I mean, please.

*Sorry, I'm still sore about the debate I had in school even if it was over a year ago. My class nemeses called me one among the mindless masses whose main defect is bliss in ignorance and therefore can be properly called stupid, hopeless and detrimental to progress. I told him that I would enjoy the day his twisted brain cells buckle under his self-inflicted stress to the point where he leaves the 'oh-so-EVIL' world by blowing a whole chunk of them out of his overheated skull with a gun. We both got sent out of class but it was dead-on worth it! :D*

My defense for you, Raff, is that I don't consider you a part of the "mindless masses" because I think you're far smarter than the people that make up that mass. You and I disagree on certain matters, but we also agree on aspects of those matters (what is science, what isn't, etc.), which is contrary to what a lot of people who are religious, like yourself, are willing to do. You don't want to force your religion on me anymore than I want to force my non-religious beliefs on you (well, except I want you to be educated, which is a non-religious thing, but I don't think that makes me a bad guy for me to want you to get an education and be smart and what not...).

So, I take offense to this person calling you a part of the mindless masses...

Rafael Domination

12-06-2008, 10:43 PM

My defense for you, Raff, is that I don't consider you a part of the "mindless masses" because I think you're far smarter than the people that make up that mass. You and I disagree on certain matters, but we also agree on aspects of those matters (what is science, what isn't, etc.), which is contrary to what a lot of people who are religious, like yourself, are willing to do. You don't want to force your religion on me anymore than I want to force my non-religious beliefs on you (well, except I want you to be educated, which is a non-religious thing, but I don't think that makes me a bad guy for me to want you to get an education and be smart and what not...).

So, I take offense to this person calling you a part of the mindless masses...

Thanks, Shaun. I admit that it might have been wrong for me to scoff at something of such grave importance, but my stance is simply a more lighthearted one. I'm sure you don't like stressing yourself out too either. So yeah, thanks again for understanding. ^^

jordanisonfire

12-07-2008, 09:08 AM

My aunt is a fundamentalist (I think that's what they're called). Thus, I know how annoying it is when someone tries to force religion on you. :glare:

Rafael Domination

12-07-2008, 08:20 PM

Shaun

12-07-2008, 08:26 PM

To be honest, I would be much more receptive to Christians if they were more huggable and loving. I'm not saying they have to be nice all the time, but the ramming it down your throat style really ruins Christianity for me. The more people like that try to force me to be like them, the more resistant I am to it. Christianity, as you said Raff, isn't about forcing people to be Christian. It's a choice. If you don't want to be that way, so be it.

That and I don't really think people go to hell for not being Christian. I think that's a load of bull. Because that would mean that well over half the world is just going to burn for eternity. I think it's more based on how you lead your life. If you lead it through hate and violence, then you probably won't go to heaven or whatever is the good side of the afterlife.

jordanisonfire

12-07-2008, 08:43 PM

Meh, I don't believe that stuff anyway. Plus, religion is the biggest cause of war, period. Though it may bring joy and goodwill in your own country, it causes problems in other countries. For example, we have terrorist attacks due to one line in the Qu'ran saying, "Slay the pagans where ye see them." So they're gonna kill like 80%, maybe more, of the world, huh? Anyway, I still think religion is a choice and you should be allowed to state your views on it, but I still hate the whole religious fanatic thing.

Rafael Domination

12-07-2008, 11:34 PM

Fanaticism is a big no-no. Yes, we have firm views on things, but hostility will bring down divine wrath on us. I know. I've read passages about that before. But the big misconception is that Christians believe that not being a Christian will send people to hell. That's another big 'huh?'. We've always been taught that, while to avoid Religious pluralism, Religion itself will not save. We can't 'earn' salvation and that a 'Christian' who didn't take of it freely from Jesus, is still damned. I've seen people like that before, who only realized it before it was too late. There is no 'Christian' when it comes to Salvation. There are only Sinners and Redeemed Sinners. The label 'Christian' is 'little Christ' for those who continue (wanting to please the God who saved them because they repented, believed and asked to be saved) by following his commandments. People have been saved who have lapsed back into carnality, and while they suffer for it, their salvation remains with them. Otherwise, it's not eternal. Just 'Salvation until we sin again'. No. Eternal means eternal. When a person is saved, he or she is saved forever. Yes, he or she can separate him/herself from a close relationship with God by sinning, and He won't be pleased, but by no means will He remove that salvation. Being Christian doesn't bring anyone one inch closer to heaven. I've seen Muslim people ask Jesus into their hearts sincerely, who have gone from the Church. While it's painful for us, we know that we'll be seeing them in the afterlife. It's the sacrifice of a God manifested in flesh that ALREADY bought Salvation. We just have to take it by repenting and believing. No big Quest for Enlightenment. Not one cent paid to the church. Not one 'good deed' done to earn it. No massive amounts of drama. It's not 'Do this so you MIGHT earn salvation', anymore. That path is full of doubt, and I've trod on it before. It's 'Done, just ask properly and take it because its a free gift'. People have a tendency to overcomplicate something so simple. :rolleyes:

Hypocrit

12-07-2008, 11:38 PM

I watched the first one. I don't know about the 9/11 and money parts (2 and 3), but I know for a fact that the first one is seriously lacking in evidence and solid reasoning, based on discussing it on several other forums a while back. It makes several conclusions based on faulty logic, and even coins some terms that nobody's ever even used ("cross of the zodiac", for example, which was an important "link" discussed in the video, only wields 200 Google results - most of which are linked to Zeitgeist either directly or indirectly).

This link I saved debunks the first part line-by-line:
http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/

...

That's hilarious. That is the "no duh" section.

Jesus is an archetype, even the smarter sects of Christianity realize this, such as certain parts of the Russian Orthodox Church, and most Gnostics, who see Christ as a symbol. You people lost the fucking plot.

Christ is a symbol. You know what his counter-part is in Aztec mythology? Quetzecoatl, the divine serpent. He represents the primary pigment of the Christ creation story; rebirth. This is damn near a symbolic universal.

Funny enough, if I were to get back on point of the whole missing the point thing, Quetzecoatl is also the archetypal "Lucifer" character in Aztec mythos, and many Gnostic sects as well as most Hermetic orders rooted in Christianity, worship Christ and Lucifer as one body. Two sides of the same coin.

Christufer. :P

Zietgest has it's faults, but you guys miss those and instead fight propaganda with your own, culturally supported, propaganda. For instance, the fact that the towers fall straight was what they were meant to do by design, and the fact they fell faster than the guy who jumps is simply a matter of physics... pancake effect pushes massive amount of air upwards to cause a draft.

And frankly Rafael, most people are really ridiculously stupid. They suffer over NOTHING, work themselves into fit over... social interaction? Wow. That's really pathetic if you think about it. Getting what you want out of people who subscribe to social normalcy, of any side of the spectrum, is so pathetically easy it's not worth my time.

It's like the people who make their entire life, desire, and will about making money and still can't do it. Just shows weakness and lack of ingenuity. Course it has been theorized that only an 11% sample of any given population has the basic mental capability to break down norms and weave through culture unharmed. This 11% would be the 11% the rest of you follow.

Now, probability wise, you, the person reading this at this very moment, are not one of them. Have a funtime being trapped by the building weight of your own self-induced stupidity.

Rafael Domination

12-07-2008, 11:48 PM

Hello, Hypo! :D

Here's a question: do you think you'll be working on the next installment of Zeigeist anytime in the near future?

Shaun

12-07-2008, 11:50 PM

Raff, I think an important thing that needs to be remembered by Christians is that the Bible is not infallible. When I say that, please don't misconstrue that I'm telling you that everything in it, even the stuff you believe, is total B.S. (even if I mostly believe that it is). What I'm saying is that a lot of the stuff that is in the Bible that people used to follow is completely ignored these days. We don't stone adulterers or blasphemers or whatever. All the horrible things that the Bible says are okay to do are things we don't do today. Why? Because much of what is in the Bible isn't necessarily "the word of God" in the traditional sense. Some of that is the result of the people who wrote the Bible trying to put their own values into it. Now, some of those values were important at the time for a lot of valid reasons. Sometimes doing something could get you killed in those days (just by life, not by people, per se). Times change, though, and so do Christians.

So, you know, the way you follow the Bible could change in 50 years :P.

Rafael Domination

12-08-2008, 12:07 AM

We don't stone adulterers or blasphemers or whatever

Ah, but that's the thing. Not 100% of the Bible is recommended by God today. There's a difference between the Old and New Testament. They used to burn witches in the Old Testament. But guess what the Apostle Paul did do Simon, a man who has publicly professed to use witchcraft?

Nothing.

He simply preached. Sure, Simon converted into a Christian, but that was mostly because the apostles didn't burn him or condemn him. Makes sense, cuz' the Church, contrary to how some think, really can't get far on corpses.

Jesus. The Old Testament rules had adulteresses stoned. But the woman the Pharisees cast at his feet...what did Jesus do? He asked the Pharisees, those ever-so-haughty idiots, which one of them was without sin, and that same person could cast the first stone. Those men left, and Jesus, guess what he did? He forgave the woman and sent her on her way.

Yes, there are 'Christians' out there who stuck to the Old Testament ways. But that was never supposed to be. The 'horrible' things in the Bible like incest, deceit and war...those things are in the Bible so we could learn from them, and avoid them. Lot's daughters had sex with their own father...that's in the Bible, but it's not encouraged. People have to read in CONTEXT sometimes. You can't just zero in on one verse and focus on it forever. The New Testament has a different view on things, y'know. :D

In short, all the commandments and prophets now hang on two ultimate commandments:

Love God
Love Others

That's it. No more 'you can only eat this kind of meat', 'sacrifice this animal on this day', 'eye for an eye', 'do this every week'. Some of the values should be kept, like the Ten Commandments, but it's folly to be living in the old days, ya.

Andy

12-08-2008, 12:10 AM

Trust me, I've had other Christians force stuff onto me. Clearly, they're not reading the Bible, which states only to Proclaim the Good News, not Ram It Down The Throat Of The First Person Who Refuses. We're not going to sugarcoat our message, but were not going to wrap it around a hammer and slam people with it either. The doors must always stay open before AND after being refused. That's the way it should be.
Oh, sheesh, I've even had other Christians try to ram their version of Christianity down my throat. Two weeks ago. And the worst bit was that they felt the need to lie (at least twice) to get their message across. "Oh, can I ask you some questions for a project?" So ANNOYING! I wonder how many bonks on the head it would take to get them to start thinking sense. :mad:

So yeah, I can honestly see why there are anti-Christians feelings going around.

To be honest, I would be much more receptive to Christians if they were more huggable and loving. I'm not saying they have to be nice all the time, but the ramming it down your throat style really ruins Christianity for me. The more people like that try to force me to be like them, the more resistant I am to it. Christianity, as you said Raff, isn't about forcing people to be Christian. It's a choice. If you don't want to be that way, so be it.

That and I don't really think people go to hell for not being Christian. I think that's a load of bull. Because that would mean that well over half the world is just going to burn for eternity. I think it's more based on how you lead your life. If you lead it through hate and violence, then you probably won't go to heaven or whatever is the good side of the afterlife.
You've actually nailed the forcing thing dead-on, Shaun. Free will is a key part of Christianity.

And the hell thing differs depending on the version of Christianity you're looking at. A lot, I think, teach that a big factor is to what degree you've been informed about and rejected it. As in, people who never heard of it won't go to hell because they never knew. I feel those who outright tell people they are going to hell (like the guys I ran into two weeks ago) give Christianity a bad name.

Andy

12-08-2008, 12:17 AM

Yes, there are 'Christians' out there who stuck to the Old Testament ways. But that was never supposed to be. The 'horrible' things in the Bible like incest, deceit and war...those things are in the Bible so we could learn from them, and avoid them. Lot's daughters had sex with their own father...that's in the Bible, but it's not encouraged. People have to read in CONTEXT sometimes. You can't just zero in on one verse and focus on it forever. The New Testament has a different view on things, y'know. :D
Actually, didn't the destruction of the Temple less than a century after Jesus' death render complete adherence to the Old Testament laws impossible?

Rafael Domination

12-08-2008, 12:20 AM

Yes, that's true. Hundreds of them survive in the books of Deuteronomy, Leviticus and Numbers, but again, most of those rules are obsolete for the life of today. I mean, only eating animals that are 'deemed' clean and stuff. I couldn't handle that. I happen to like pork and eel very much, and it would be hard for me to be an Old Testament person. :D

Shaun

12-08-2008, 12:32 AM

And the hell thing differs depending on the version of Christianity you're looking at. A lot, I think, teach that a big factor is to what degree you've been informed about and rejected it. As in, people who never heard of it won't go to hell because they never knew. I feel those who outright tell people they are going to hell (like the guys I ran into two weeks ago) give Christianity a bad name.

Yes, well unfortunately moderate Christians such as yourself aren't more vocal about your form of Christianity, which is a benefit and a curse. On the one hand you don't want to be like those loud-mouthed guys, but on the other you're also pretty much ignored in the public sphere. It sucks. I think mostly when I talk about hating Christianity it's in relation to those loud-mouthed Christians, not the actual good Christians who pay more attention to Jesus Christ :P. Jesus would have hugged us agnostics. :P

Rafael Domination

12-08-2008, 12:35 AM

loud-mouthed Christians

You mean the nuts like Mrs. Carmody in the Mist. I mean, please, she's clearly gone out of whack. I mean, there's nothing wrong with proclaiming the good news of Salvation, but to be the one who condemns people. That's God's duty, and any 'Christian' who does it is infringing on that right.

Andy

12-08-2008, 12:47 AM

Yes, well unfortunately moderate Christians such as yourself aren't more vocal about your form of Christianity, which is a benefit and a curse.
Oh, we do speak up. But it's hard to compete in the media with the nutsies with their thousand followers who claim they're Jesus. And those others who preach why the world will end tomorrow (when in reality it's supposed to end in one year :D:rolleyes: )

Yeah, unfortunately the media likes to focus on the idiots who give Christians a bad name. And also likes to make false statements about Christians and why they support certain things.

ScottyMcGee

12-08-2008, 04:15 AM

I've always wrestled with religion, and I guess you could say I always will until that "one moment" in everyone's life when everything seems to have an answer.

Jesus was a cool dude, I have to admit. Fictional or non-fictional.
One misconception I hate is that he was born on December 25.
Doesn't anyone realize that they didn't even have the calendars we have today?
Jesus was approximately born on what would now be March 7.
I forgot the reason why they switched it to December 25, but it had to do something with the calendar times, blah blah blah.

The MAIN issue I always struggle with is how an all-loving God can allow its creations to endure eternity in a hell. As well as several paradoxes, such as if God is everywhere then does that mean it's in hell too?
My belief system is somewhat a mix of everything. If there are universal morals, then there has to be some type of end fate/punishment for those who are evil. Maybe they simply enter a terrible state of being where they dwell in their evil deeds forever.
I think Jesus was divine, but his true message got skewered and the Church used his supernatural ability to have command over society. I as a Christian (somewhat) am frankly ashamed at Christianity's history. I admit religion has been a tool of war countless times. No one realizes that if Jesus came here, he could be appalled at his own followers and Church.

I have this theory that there was this one ancestor long ago who discovered the meaning to life, or communicated with God or "Whatever Is Up There" and was given the gift of immortality. He came back as Buddha, then as Jesus, and all those mythological beings and gods we hear about. But as time went by and the world became more wrapped in itself, the reincarnated hero gave up in trying to change the world as just left us. But he still tries to communicate with us whenever something weird happens. Whether it be a miracle or something extraordinary.

It's a bit of a stretch, and sounds like something Douglas Adams would write, but hey it'd make a good story. :D

Sometimes, I just think WE are Gods ourselves. If we believe in Jesus, then after we die Jesus exists, but only for us. If you don't believe in anything, then nothing will happen, and you will become nothing. If you believe in reincarnation, then you will be reincarnated. If you believe you'll go to war forever with the Norse gods, then you will go to war forever with the Norse gods. I discussed it to my roommate and he said it was a very fair way of the universe.
Basically, you get what you deserve/believe in

Diocletian

12-08-2008, 04:18 AM

Not to sound abrasive, but I don't see how there can be such a thing as a moderate Christian who stays completely true to New Testament law. After all, Christ himself was one of your "loud-mouthed" Christians and was many times more intrusive than Pat Robertson.

Didn't Christ once walk into a temple and start harrassing, without provocation, money-changers who were minding their own business? That to me sounds exactly like the Christians you see on TV who are supposedly disdained by "moderate" Christians. What makes your founder so exempt from being called out on this same behavior?

Enlighten me, please.

The MAIN issue I always struggle with is how an all-loving God can allow its creations to endure eternity in a hell. As well as several paradoxes, such as if God is everywhere then does that mean it's in hell too?

Hell is mentioned in the Bible 4 times, and only in one of those is it described in any detail whatsoever: the lake of fire. Unfortunately for Protestants, this lake of fire probably isn't an actual lake because if you believe that Biblical descriptions are figurative - such as the seven day creation thing - then you must, according to continuity, have reason to doubt the literal aspects of such a lake. So basically, nobody actually knows what Hell is, except God, and Christians make it a big deal to scare nonbelievers into converting.

Rafael Domination

12-08-2008, 04:33 AM

No offense, but if some fool walked into my house and decided to sell sheep there, I'd knock more than his table around. Diocletian, read stuff in CONTEXT and stop zeroing in on one part of the WHOLE picture. That temple was the House of the Lord. And those were NOT money-changing stands. It was a marketplace where people lost tempers and cash due to greed and laziness. The market should be OUT of the temple, not IN it. Jesus had every right to drive out everyone who turned it into a cesspool of thievery and cheating, just as I have the right to drop-kick any buffoon who thinks he or she can march into my house and haggle in there.

And if you noticed, Jesus intruded on, guess who, the Pharisees, who were stuck-up, haughty, holier-than-thou-art cunts similar to a lot of dogmatic Christians out there. They were the ones who Jesus told straight up 'YOU ARE A BUNCH OF TWO-FACED IDIOTS'. Again, there's an example of Christian Love in there by itself. Jesus stated an opinion, but he never tried to turn anyone to, or harm the Pharisees directly, or force them into his side. He had crowds following him, and Jesus could easily have gone all Nazi and sic his followers on those hypocrites, but he didn't.

I admit that NO ON is perfect, and Christians are actually nothing more than just Redeemed Sinners. That's all. We are incapable of sticking to all of God's rules. There's nothing different between a Christian and a human. But 'sticking to the rules' and 'which rules to follow' are not the same topic. I agree in that

I don't see how there can be such a thing as a moderate Christian that stays completely true to New Testament law

...but there are those who strive their best to follow it. I am not one of those mythical 'perfect christians' people keep expecting us to become, but I am about the last person who would support any Inquisitions or other dogmatic garbage like that. My job is to spread the good news without being rude about it and be a blessing to others. That's it.

ScottyMcGee

12-08-2008, 04:46 AM

I guess I'm a Christian in the sense that I believe that Jesus existed, was divine, and favor his teachings and such and such. In the basic sense. Of course, people can always argue that you can't be "half-Christian" or, in general, only "part" of a religion. But you can certainly lean towards one, or have the qualities of another.
But one thing I've noticed when reading and studying the Gospels is that Jesus was a very clever and tricky fellow. Of course, cus, well, he was divine. You think he means one thing, but he has in mind something completely different. You can never, ever, get around his head or mess with it. He's the kind of teacher who wouldn't tell you the answer and have you memorize it, but rather set down clues and let you put the puzzle together.

But then I have a problem when people believe every world of the Bible. Well, not every word in the sense of being an evangelical, but that all the events in the Bible took place as described. No doubt, the Bible is one of the oldest documents in all of human history and has undergone thousands of translations and editions. I having studied in a Biblical Studies course know all the criticisms and errors of the Bible. Things were changed along the way. Stupid mistakes were made by translators. Meanings were lost. Gaps were filled to further accommodate others. And we also have to realize that we have to read some things in the context of the time period they were in. For example, Revelation may not mean the end of time at all universally, but at that specific time it was written when Christians were being persecuted. Certain words are now archaic or have different meanings. Other words may not even exist at all now or have an equivalent to our language and were filled up completely with a new meaning.
I'm not saying everything in it is false; there are things in there I believe and hold as truths, but it's when we interpret these things that we must be careful. What does this mean? Jesus' own apostles were clueless about the things he did and said. If people who LIVED with this person couldn't even understand him, how could we, a millennium from then, can?

Of course he was intrusive, because he was trying to make a radical point. But was he a "loud-mouthed" Christian? When we look at that story you mentioned, for example, couldn't one also interpret the meaning that a place of worship is, generally, set only for a place of worship? Of course I'd be ticked off too if I saw a Church filled with sellers, but I'd also feel irked if they did that in a synagogue, or a mosque, etc.

I dunno if I made any sense because it's 1 in the morning and I've been in pain constantly from a leg injury and I could drunkenly ramble about this for hours and hours. So I'd appreciate it if my words in this post would be excused from any attacks because I'm not seriously thinking clearly and want to go to sleep.

@__@

Rafael Domination

12-12-2008, 01:02 AM

So basically, nobody actually knows what Hell is, except God, and Christians make it a big deal to scare nonbelievers into converting.

Says you. If that's the only thing you focus on, then again, you need to get a broader view of what Christianity really is, or at least the Biblical one. That's not the thing most sincere Christians focus on all the time. We're meant to spread the 'Good News of Free Salvation and the Gift of Eternal Life'. Yes, hell is mentioned, but it isn't a figurative thing. As in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, it is clear what Hell was. But Hell isn't the Christian's only tool to bring people back to God. Conversion isn't the main goal. It's reconciliation. We prefer to proclaim the news, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest of the work. It's not our duty to say 'get saved, or go to hell. You're either with us, or against us!'. Our duty is to tell them 'God loves you so much he paid the way for you to get to Heaven. Life is offered freely unto you. Would you like to take it?'.

Shaun

12-12-2008, 01:58 AM

First, Raff, you need to reduce that image if your sig. It's way too big and I'd rather you change the size than force me to remove it :P. I'ts just too large, okay? Please make it much much smaller :P.

Says you. If that's the only thing you focus on, then again, you need to get a broader view of what Christianity really is, or at least the Biblical one. That's not the thing most sincere Christians focus on all the time. We're meant to spread the 'Good News of Free Salvation and the Gift of Eternal Life'. Yes, hell is mentioned, but it isn't a figurative thing. As in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, it is clear what Hell was. But Hell isn't the Christian's only tool to bring people back to God. Conversion isn't the main goal. It's reconciliation. We prefer to proclaim the news, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest of the work. It's not our duty to say 'get saved, or go to hell. You're either with us, or against us!'. Our duty is to tell them 'God loves you so much he paid the way for you to get to Heaven. Life is offered freely unto you. Would you like to take it?'.

I think the problem here, Raff, is that you're assuming all Christians,whether or not you consider them to be Christian is irrelevant here, don't follow this same idea. As nice as what you're saying sounds, that's not the message that is being spread. In fact, it's been a consistent thing that Christians of various denominations are spreading more hate and bigotry than anything to do with salvation and love. They use hell as a way to scare people into conforming to God's rules, which shouldn't be the way it is. That does not make belief in God a thing of free will. It makes it a choice between burning in agony for eternity or following laws that you may or may not agree with for the chance to go to happy Heaven.

If Christians want to bring people to God, then Christians need to start doing a much better job of making it seem like a good idea to people. I will never be Christian precisely because the message that is being bashed down my throat by the loud-mouthed Christians completely goes against my better nature. I do not believe that premarital sex is a sin, nor homosexuality, nor a number of things that these fundamentalists try to tell me is a sin. I know that evolution exists because I have seen and understand the evidence and I don't believe that contradicts God, nor the Bible, because I don't believe that the Bible is literally truth so much as anecdotes and moralistic stories created by people to make a point that was, at one point, very valid. There are numerous things I simply do not like about the Christian faith. And don't get me started on missionaries, because those folks tend to be the worst of them all. The fact that they're so naive to think that they're doing good work is disturbing...

Also, I take issue with the notion that any of what you're saying is free. You can't go to heaven, according to what you're saying, unless you worship God. That's not free. It costs you something. That something may not be money, but you're still making a payment to get something. Just saying. It's not free. I'm not saying that it's not a worthy price to pay if Heaven is real, but just that it's not something that doesn't require payment. If it was free than I wouldn't have to do anyting whatsoever to go to Heaven.

Rafael Domination

12-12-2008, 02:25 AM

First, Raff, you need to reduce that image if your sig. It's way too big and I'd rather you change the size than force me to remove it :P. I'ts just too large, okay? Please make it much much smaller :P.

I think the problem here, Raff, is that you're assuming all Christians,whether or not you consider them to be Christian is irrelevant here, don't follow this same idea. As nice as what you're saying sounds, that's not the message that is being spread. In fact, it's been a consistent thing that Christians of various denominations are spreading more hate and bigotry than anything to do with salvation and love. They use hell as a way to scare people into conforming to God's rules, which shouldn't be the way it is. That does not make belief in God a thing of free will. It makes it a choice between burning in agony for eternity or following laws that you may or may not agree with for the chance to go to happy Heaven.

If Christians want to bring people to God, then Christians need to start doing a much better job of making it seem like a good idea to people. I will never be Christian precisely because the message that is being bashed down my throat by the loud-mouthed Christians completely goes against my better nature. I do not believe that premarital sex is a sin, nor homosexuality, nor a number of things that these fundamentalists try to tell me is a sin. I know that evolution exists because I have seen and understand the evidence and I don't believe that contradicts God, nor the Bible, because I don't believe that the Bible is literally truth so much as anecdotes and moralistic stories created by people to make a point that was, at one point, very valid. There are numerous things I simply do not like about the Christian faith. And don't get me started on missionaries, because those folks tend to be the worst of them all. The fact that they're so naive to think that they're doing good work is disturbing...

Also, I take issue with the notion that any of what you're saying is free. That's not free. It costs you something. That something may not be money, but you're still making a payment to get something. Just saying. It's not free. I'm not saying that it's not a worthy price to pay if Heaven is real, but just that it's not something that doesn't require payment. If it was free than I wouldn't have to do anyting whatsoever to go to Heaven.

I'll get to work on the sig *sigh*

First up, it's not law we're trying to make people conform to. It's a relationship. Second, those 'Christians' who spread this message of hate are clearly not the Biblical type. I'm referring to Biblical Christians who follow the soul-winning instructions given to us. Second, Hell isn't a way to scare people any more than those Drinking and Driving commercials use Death or Imprisonment to deter people from such a place. It's simply a result. People can disagree with those government commercials, and if they so choose to drink and drive because they do not agree with it, then if they get pulled over, they have no one but themselves to blame. Still, you can give those 'hateful' Christians a kick from me, because they don't deserve that title. Yes, you disagree with our beliefs, and I agree that's it's wrong to bash them down your throat, but there's nothing wrong with proclaiming them. Free speech belongs to us too.

You can't go to heaven, according to what you're saying, unless you worship God.

Ah, but that's YOUR interpretation of it. Think of Salvation this way. It is a gift. One that has already been bought. And God is dangling it in front of your face. He says 'say please and you can have it.' Contrary to what you just said, you don't have to be 'good' in life, or have to worship God before or after it. 'Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. It doesn't say 'whosoever goes to church everyday' or 'whosoever has been a 'christian'' or 'whosoever shall pay the church'. The Bible says 'Whosoever shall call'. If my parents decided to buy me a new watch from Christmas, and then told me I had to be a good boy to get it, THEN IT ISN'T A FREE GIFT. All I have to do is take it from them properly. Now, taking Salvation properly

Now, if you were honest with God, God was honest with you. And the reason why service and worship came afterwards for me was out of gratitude. I mean, He just gave you eternal life, the least you could do is love him. Worship doesn't come before. It flows out naturally AFTER being saved.

And before you focus in on so little and simple an action (which isn't the same as payment or a 'good deed'), those 'free' samples of doughnuts you see people trying out at the mall? They're free because YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM. But you're never going to GET THEM IF YOU DON'T REACH OUT AND TAKE IT PROPERLY. You saying that you have to do NOTHING to get to heaven is true to the extent that you don't have to do a single good deed to earn it. But your statement that even 'taking it properly' is an 'action' that initiates salvation is like accusing those vendors of lying to you, and that those doughnut samples aren't free because YOU HAVE TO TAKE THEM FROM THE BASKET. That's just laziness.

Now, you and I are on different grounds, I know that. And what you do from here on are things that I have no say whatsoever, while the reverse applies for me too. But I can say for sure that the Christianity you're referring to is a corrupt bunch that has been PROPHESIED by several to come. I suggest you forget them altogether and deem them too low and small for you to see and focus os another side of Christianity that doesn't reside in such a filthy place.

Shaun

12-12-2008, 03:07 AM

Second, Hell isn't a way to scare people any more than those Drinking and Driving commercials use Death or Imprisonment to deter people from such a place. It's simply a result.

Whether you think it is a way to scare people isn't really relevant, because the effect it produces by saying "you can go to hell" is fear. If hell wasn't even a part of the equation of the afterlife, then that owuld be a different thing.

Ah, but that's YOUR interpretation of it. Think of Salvation this way. It is a gift. One that has already been bought. And God is dangling it in front of your face. He says 'say please and you can have it.' Contrary to what you just said, you don't have to be 'good' in life, or have to worship God before or after it. 'Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. It doesn't say 'whosoever goes to church everyday' or 'whosoever has been a 'christian'' or 'whosoever shall pay the church'. The Bible says 'Whosoever shall call'. If my parents decided to buy me a new watch from Christmas, and then told me I had to be a good boy to get it, THEN IT ISN'T A FREE GIFT. All I have to do is take it from them properly. Now, taking Salvation properly

Wait, so if I don't have to do anything to go to Heaven, then why bother with the Bible at all? If I don't have to worship god, or be good, or anything, then what is the point of even bothering with it at all?

Rafael Domination

12-12-2008, 03:24 AM

Hell wasn't an equation of the afterlife, but with the introduction of sin, it did. Hell was at first intended for Satan, but now, God has to judge. He is Holy, and he has the right to, as much as it grieves him.

Wait, so if I don't have to do anything to go to Heaven, then why bother with the Bible at all? If I don't have to worship god, or be good, or anything, then what is the point of even bothering with it at all?

Ah, now that stuff comes after being saved. It's a personal choice to follow after the One who died for people while they spat on him, tore his skin apart, denied his existence. You can chose not to, but from what I've seen, those who chose to keep a father-child relationship with God are at more peace, though trial or quietness, than the ones who simply stray. Now, that's a personal testimony, with me being a chief example. There is no way I'd go back to they way I was. I chose to follow my Lord because he loves me. Now, if I don't 'bother' with it all, who else is going to hear? If I 'don't' bother with the instructions of charity in the Bible, how am I going to be a blessing on others? We don't HAVE to worship God to be saved, but don't you think it's logical to say 'thank you' afterwards? I can't show you the blessings I've received from choosing to follow God, but I can say for sure, that inside, the emptiness that was there before, is gone. I can't explain it, but it's a peace and tranquility that makes everyday worth living. This comes after, but first one must take of Salvation.

Look, we could go at this all night, and soon you might start accusing me of ramming stuff down your throat when all I want to do is explain my side of the story. But think of it this way:

If the atheist is right, then good or bad, the world will return to nothing. No one wins and no one loses.
If God is right, then...let's just say eternity is a long time...I'd rather spend it in heaven. Are you willing to take the risk? Agnostic is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove. I'd rather know through faith, than dwell in the unknown. But that's me. ^^

*Is my sig still too big?*

Zaphkiel

12-12-2008, 03:25 AM

Both of you should just stop this. This arguement won't solve anything and it won't go any where. Shaun, Some Christians did use fear to convert, but that was back in the day; it rarely happens anymore. Raf, I've learned that people shouldn't try to change the hearts of others unless, they are willing, so some of the stuff Shaun is saying makes sense. Remeber, I'm a Christian too.

Rafael Domination

12-12-2008, 03:34 AM

I'm not trying to change hearts. I can't. I'm a mere human. I'm simply explaining the site of the story I believe to be true. And 'Christians' do use hatred today. 'God hates Fags'?. No he doesn't. Does he hate Sin? Yes, but there is not one person in history, from Hitler to Osama, that Jesus didn't love so much he died for them, willing to substitute himself as payment for their sin. Whether Shaun agrees or not is his decision, as IT SHOULD BE.

Andy

12-12-2008, 03:52 AM

I can't leave you guys alone for one day, can I? :P

Zaphkiel

12-12-2008, 03:55 AM

I can't leave you guys alone for one day, can I? :P

Nope, not those two.

Rafael Domination

12-12-2008, 03:55 AM

It's a simple exchange of thoughts, good sir. Nothing like some debates I've seen on *other* (cough-cough) sites. We're being very civilized about it. :D

Andy

12-12-2008, 05:52 AM

I'll get to work on the sig *sigh*
I like the sig. Is a bit big, though. Maybe double the max avatar size?
Ah, but that's YOUR interpretation of it. Think of Salvation this way. It is a gift. One that has already been bought. And God is dangling it in front of your face. He says 'say please and you can have it.' Contrary to what you just said, you don't have to be 'good' in life, or have to worship God before or after it. 'Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. It doesn't say 'whosoever goes to church everyday' or 'whosoever has been a 'christian'' or 'whosoever shall pay the church'. The Bible says 'Whosoever shall call'. If my parents decided to buy me a new watch from Christmas, and then told me I had to be a good boy to get it, THEN IT ISN'T A FREE GIFT. All I have to do is take it from them properly. Now, taking Salvation properly

Now, if you were honest with God, God was honest with you. And the reason why service and worship came afterwards for me was out of gratitude. I mean, He just gave you eternal life, the least you could do is love him. Worship doesn't come before. It flows out naturally AFTER being saved.
Aw, cute. I basically agree with everything Raffy says except these few underlined bits. Mainly that I don't think of "after being saved" except with regard after being judged after death. And being saved is a continuous thing through life. ^^ Which is fun to think about. We could have a 3-way slamfest in the chatroom. :crazy:

Shaun's turn.
Whether you think it is a way to scare people isn't really relevant, because the effect it produces by saying "you can go to hell" is fear. If hell wasn't even a part of the equation of the afterlife, then that owuld be a different thing.
First off, spellcheck. Or you look like a MADMAN! Get Firefox already, or take note of the red dots under the words.

Well, given Christianity is about a choice, what other alternative to heaven would you suggest? The empty colorless place everyone floats around in? :D

Wait, so if I don't have to do anything to go to Heaven, then why bother with the Bible at all? If I don't have to worship god, or be good, or anything, then what is the point of even bothering with it at all?Yeah...that seems to be what Big Sig Pic Man and I disagree on. Whether or not deeds are needed to grab at that gift God's dangling in front of us.

Rafael Domination

12-12-2008, 06:03 AM

I like the sig. Is a bit big, though. Maybe double the max avatar size?

You mean it's still too big? :( But I just reduced it. Ah well, I'll wait for Shaun's next move, and I'll change it accordingly.

Aw, cute. I basically agree with everything Raffy says except these few underlined bits. Mainly that I don't think of "after being saved" except with regard after being judged after death. And being saved is a continuous thing through life. Which is fun to think about. We could have a 3-way slamfest in the chatroom.

I never 'said' those. I pulled those off straight out of the Bible. It says whosoever shall call. I'd rather think God offers salvation to all, not just the ones with the label of 'Christian'. I believe that deeds do not earn salvation. The Bible says 'not of works' but by 'grace'. And no thanks - I'd lose in a Chatroom Brawl. I don't type that fast. :D

Andy

12-12-2008, 08:45 PM

It's a simple exchange of thoughts, good sir. Nothing like some debates I've seen on *other* (cough-cough) sites. We're being very civilized about it. :D
Oh-hohohohoho! I get it now. Haha. It's been in my mind's trash-heap for too long. :D

I never 'said' those. I pulled those off straight out of the Bible. It says whosoever shall call. I'd rather think God offers salvation to all, not just the ones with the label of 'Christian'. I believe that deeds do not earn salvation.
I never said one had to be a Christian to get salvation.

And I never said works were a substitute for grace, or that they 'earn' grace. I think 'merit' would be a better word. I think a good metaphor would be a person digging for gold. If he finds gold, he doesn't earn it the way someone earns a salary. It was always there for the taking, but work was needed to get it.

The Bible says 'not of works' but by 'grace'. And no thanks - I'd lose in a Chatroom Brawl. I don't type that fast. :D
All depends on what exactly was being said about the two in whatever passage you're thinking of. :devious: Context is critical.

Rafael Domination

12-12-2008, 09:31 PM

I think a good metaphor would be a person digging for gold. If he finds gold, he doesn't earn it the way someone earns a salary. It was always there for the taking, but work was needed to get it.

Ah, but buried gold isn't a gift. A better metaphor would be that someone else dug the gold out, losing his hand in the process, and then presented it to us saying ask nicely and I'll give it to you. For us to dig the gold out would require a lot of work. As it is, Salvation can be obtain with so little an act. People just tend to overcomplicate it a lot. :D

Oh-hohohohoho! I get it now. Haha. It's been in my mind's trash-heap for too long.

So I'm not in trouble for bringing it up? :D

Shaun

12-17-2008, 04:46 PM

jordanisonfire

12-17-2008, 05:32 PM

I'm not saying I support Raf's views, but think of it this way Shaun: what if its a test? If we can survive in this world, and still be good and remain true to God, at least by acknowledging His presence, then maybe that's the thing? I, personally, don't believe that, but it's a theory. ^_^

Shaun

12-17-2008, 08:07 PM

I'm not a guinea pig. That's my response. I am not here to try to figure things out so I can go live in super happy land with God. I'm more interesting in treating this life like it's the only one I have.

Andy

12-17-2008, 08:20 PM

Ah, but buried gold isn't a gift. A better metaphor would be that someone else dug the gold out, losing his hand in the process, and then presented it to us saying ask nicely and I'll give it to you. For us to dig the gold out would require a lot of work. As it is, Salvation can be obtain with so little an act. People just tend to overcomplicate it a lot. :D
Fine. Someone puts the gold there, and tells you to go dig in that general area. :P

So I'm not in trouble for bringing it up? :DUm, let's see...how DARE you speak negatively of such things! :P

I'm not a guinea pig. That's my response. I am not here to try to figure things out so I can go live in super happy land with God. I'm more interesting in treating this life like it's the only one I have.
Can one not do both? To be honest, I think it makes life more interesting. :devious:

Think of it this way: you're God, and nobody else exists yet, and you are lonely. Now, you can make beings who love you unconditionally. "We love you, master. We do. We do." Basically, they're like robots. They didn't choose to do it to you, you made them that way. So is that love and worship really genuine?

On the other hand, you could make beings who could choose either way, and you don't program them to either love or hate you. Then one of them decides to love you. Which would make you happier? All the ones in the first example, or that one in the second?

I think children and pets as opposed to robots are the same way. Ever watch the movie AI: Articifial Intelligence? Very sad. :(

Shaun

12-17-2008, 08:27 PM

Rafael Domination

12-17-2008, 08:44 PM

Okay, so basically here is what you're saying, Raff. God has a lovely gift for me in the afterlife, but I have to ask nicely for it even though, in my opinion, God hasn't earned that from me when you consider how effed up this world is. Millions of people are starving to death, millions are being murdered, raped, and destroyed by religious wars, non-religious wars, and evil people, disease is rampant, our planet is ticked off with us, etc etc etc. While you might think that "oh, well at least you're alive" is a good reason to be thankful of God (if God exists, obviously), I don't think it is when you consider the state of the world. It's not enough for me to be told that there's some magic place up there that's better. This world could be better and I don't think it's the handiwork of a very capable supreme being. In fact, as George Carlin would say, if this planet and universe is not the work of a supreme being, but more like the work of a pissed off government clerk.

Now that's just sad. You've got some nerve thinking that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, infinite being needs to EARN your human love. Those problems that you mentioned: they aren't Gods fault. You need to shift the blame to where it really belongs: humans. Humans murdered and raped, contrary to God's rules. It was their choice not to obey. Humans let other humans starve, when God said love your neighbor as much as you love yourself. We have more than enough resources to feed everyone on the planet. Humans corrupted religion to suit their craving for violence when God specifically bashed on murder. This world was perfect before man messed it up. Quit using God, and us, as scapegoats just because you feel helpless about how the world is going. If everybody did things how God wanted them to, we wouldn't be in this mess. God could inflict plagues a million times worse on this world, and he'd still be God. But guess what he did? He died to pave a way to heaven. If you want to go focus on the oh-so-bleak aspects of this finite life, go ahead. I have my eyes set of the real truth about God.

Andy

12-17-2008, 08:45 PM

Yes, because making creatures that can choose between burning in fiery hell for all eternity for not loving you or loving you and going to a nice happy place after heaven is drastically different from robots.

I just have a problem with the whole concept. At least, that's the way a lot of Christians think, and perhaps you and Raff are very much the same. Then again, if you are, then I don't really see a point in loving or worshipping God at all, because if I'm going to go to heaven anyway...what's the point?

By the way, I am going to go to heaven when I die. It's called Disneyland. And that's where all the lost little boys who used to wish Santa Claus was real go. But if you're a bad anti-Santa Claus person you end up being one of the automatons in the "It's a Small World" ride.
Meh. I think you're focusing far too much on the hell aspect. And Family Guy, judging by that last bit. :P Fear of hell may motivate some people to become Christian, which is fine and all, but the real focus should be on what's gained, not what's avoided.

Ever read Pillars of the Earth? There's one character who's terrified of hell, but he's a real tyrant. And people randomly tell him he's going to hell for the things he does, and it drives him crazy. It's actually quite funny.

I think you should find a good, non-biased book on Christianity. If not to consider it, then to at least learn about what it actually teaches and its place in history. That would clear up a lot of the explaining going on in this thread.

Snappy Penguine

12-17-2008, 09:18 PM

. . . Humans let other humans starve, when God said love your neighbor as much as you love yourself. We have more than enough resources to feed everyone on the planet. Humans corrupted religion to suit their craving for violence when God specifically bashed on murder. This world was perfect before man messed it up. . .

Interesting perspective and points.

One problem I find in the situation of "following what God told us to do" is that the Bible has been altered various times (not the original, but some versions are still claiming to be "Bibles") and it’s quite difficult to determine what God (if he/she exists, and I think not) wants us to do.

Also, just a thought: say God existed, and the Bible were never altered, it's still fallible because the Bible was set to print by people who--especially during the time period in which the Bible was set to print--are EXTREMELY fallible.

Another thing that I've always found odd is that though there is no physical evidence of God, or that the events of the Bible took place, and the fact that the existence of God and those events is basically hearsay "In God We Trust" is on Government bills and buildings, and yet with the kind of evidence--or lack thereof--that those events have, if they were brought to court as a case of provability, even the worse lawyer could have those events thrown out. (Not trying to piss anybody off, just saying).

One last thing: since this is now a debate, it should probably be taken to the debate section.