How to phrase this ... ?

[Carraka]

I'm going to ramble for a while, because I don't know how to say this properly.

I've noticed that sometimes we welcome people here, with great spamming introduction threads and warmth and blue oranges in the community section, but when that person skips over to the literature section and makes the brave step of posting their story for actual review, their thread is locked, and they are told they need to contribute to the site more before they can post their own stuff.

Yes. I've just outlined a problem, but I have yet to realize how to explain that this is a problem. (To me, at least.) I know that we want members that critique, but I don't think newbies are a problem unless they have posted several stories (or several segments of one) without giving any indication of even attempting to do stuff in return. It seems to me it ought to be a multiple offense before it becomes punishable.

When I joined TW, I knew that I would eventually crit and post, but it was my first time on a writing website, and I was extremely unprepared for even the thought of either. I posted a story first. My first critique was a month or so later, and it may have terrified me more than posting my story. If that had all happened on this site, and my thread had been locked, I don't know what would've happened. Perhaps I would've critted earlier, but it would've been an extremely traumatic experience. I don't know if I would've fled and never come back -- I've fled sites before. I'm still afraid that they'll recognize my IP address if I go back just to browse.

Paranoia.

Part of being a new member on this site is posting the first story, and getting that first critique, and I don't think that should be directly related to whether you critique someone else's story first. And critiquing several stories in exchange for the right to post your first story also seems a bit too much.

Other people perceive the same situation differently. I guess by now you realize I'm talking about a specific example of something that occurred on the site. We have a different way of thinking about this sort of crit/post exchange, so I'd like to know what other people think, and whether our site policy should be more specific/lenient/harsh/loose, etc.

I think everything will change with our new point system, which means that there ought to be free points in the beginning, just so the member can post a first story/poem/etc.

I've been discriminating against poems, haven't I? xP

[Shaun]

My problem is that a lot of people have joined the site, got their free critiques, and disappeared without contributing anything useful to the site (such as a critique, or a thoughtful conversation). If it were only a couple people, it wouldn't be a problem, but it's a lot of people doing this. They're taking advantage of you, the active member, by coming here, throwing work on here, getting their free crit, and disappearing. It's not too much to ask that someone do a couple critiques before posting their own work.

We're going to have a crit point system soon so we don't have to remove work...but I don't know what you want us to do otherwise. If we don't do anything, the site gets abused.

[Carraka]

-sigh-

The problem is that you have a point also.

[Shaun]

I wish we didn't have to delete work, but a lot of people took advantage before, and it isn't fair. People like you and some of our other active members, who do loads of critiques, don't deserve to be treated that way. It's not too much to ask for someone to post some critiques of other works. We're not asking for in-depth stuff. You could just spend a few paragraphs explaining the flaws for starters. That's reasonable. And then work your way up.

[Carraka]

Oh, right.

I forget that I hold myself to a standard that I don't hold other people too. -bashes self-

I'm almost glad I posted this, because even though I get to

-bash myself-

I can feel less guilty over stuff that I didn't do.

[Zombified]

Once the point system is in effect things will change.

Hopefully it comes sooner rather than later.

[Andy]

I'm working on the point system. It is just about ready to go, except it needs testing.

[Imelda]

Well I could point out the incredibly successful method used at another awesome writing site, but I won't.

How about if new members get free points after, say, three days, which gives them time to slip into the community, maybe decide to critique earlier if they want to (and get points earlier)? That stops the jerks who sign up to post and never come back, but doesn't go all delete-y with their work. I must admit I didn't even know people were doing that, or I would have pointed out how bad it was myself.

[Andy]

How about if new members get free points after, say, three days, which gives them time to slip into the community, maybe decide to critique earlier if they want to (and get points earlier)? That stops the jerks who sign up to post and never come back, but doesn't go all delete-y with there work. I must admit I didn't even know people were doing that, or I would have pointed out how bad it was myself.
We've had this idea for a long while. However many points we decide a pice costs to post, new members will start out with perhaps 75% of it. Or something like that.

[Starry]

Hmm, while I think the points system is a good safeguard, couldn't we maybe give the newbies one free post to start out with? Looking back, I think I posted the first segment of Estara before I critted anything, but now I've posted more crits than story segments anyway. :] Seeing how someone crits your story can be a big help in figuring out how to crit someone else's.

[Shaun]

That's just it: you are a rarity among folks who don't crit first. You might be a good person and crit, like Carr, but if we give a free post to a newbie, what's the point of the system at all?
I think it would be fair to give 75% of the needed amount to all newcomers. That way all they would need to do is one good crit and then post.

[Ichigo]

Heh. I just critted a poem for someone with only one post.

....:P

[Shaun]

Yup and that poem was just removed...actually, it's been removed twice now. The author has posted it two times...

[Ichigo]

Oh. Riiiiiight.
Well I'll keep my eye out for more poems with low posting authors.

[random_writer]

I don't know if it was just me, but someone (It might have been Carraka, actually:D) told me not to post until I critted something when she posted on my welcome thread...which was, incidentally, filled with warmth and blue oranges.

[Carraka]

... that would not have been me.

I don't say those sorts of things. Hopefully. If I did say that, I take it back.

[Majyk]

Just because it was bugging me, I checked, and Nyx was the one who told you, RW.

[Lykaios]

Before I recieved my first critique I didn't even know what one was. After I was told I just copied the crit I had recieved and made it relivant to the work I was looking at and that worked okay-ish. Some newbie might also be forum newbies too and not know this stuff, so maybe all newbies should be sent a PM (if they aren't already) explaining what they have to do and critiquing, or something?

*Sniffs,* I miss my blue-oranges . . .

[Sofiel]

-points to self- Forum newbie..

I had no clue how to crit, or even that I had to when I first joined. I didn't know how to actually post a crit, either, and so I was very proud of myself when I figured out how to post my story. I checked back later, and it was closed. I had NO clue what I did wrong. I fixed it up since then, but it's really discouraging. :P

Until the point system is in place, it would be helpful to point out in the Welcome thread that you need to do a few crits first. The PM thing is nice, but I know in my case I wouldn't have been able to open it/read it/reply to it.

How many crits do you have to do before you post your own work, anyway? Two... three?

Where did the blue-oranges go??

[Lykaios]

Where did the blue-oranges go??
Into a box for special occasions.

Maybe we should do something like on TW, 10 posts before you can post your own work? That works okay, and stops work from being deleted before it gets a chance, and the newbies generally get the hang of the forum by then or just after.

[Andy]

Maybe we should do something like on TW, 10 posts before you can post your own work? That works okay, and stops work from being deleted before it gets a chance, and the newbies generally get the hang of the forum by then or just after.
While that is more effective than no regulations at all, there are some problems. It only regulates brand-new members, and it does not regulate the amount of things they can submit. The point system I'm working on will hopefully solve both these problems.

[Imelda]

Heh. I just critted a poem for someone with only one post.

....:P

Yup and that poem was just removed...actually, it's been removed twice now. The author has posted it two times...

Yes, please penalise the nice folks critiquing these leeches, by removing posts from them. Great system. *sarcasm*

[Shaun]

Yup, it is a great system. What can I say? YWO rules :P.

[Ichigo]

Haha...I think I have too many posts anyways.
I'm trying to cut back. :sarcasm:

[angela]

Aw, I feel bad. I NEED TO CRITIQUE.

/sheesh.

I will swear to myself that I'll critique, right after I've finished cleaning my room. That sounds really stupid, but it's true.

I swear, I need to build my confidence. =="

[Carraka]

Hmm -- if you swear to yourself to do stuff, maybe it'll help to swear to someone else also. What I do to force myself to critique is go to something I can critique and post something like:

I promise that I will critique this story by this date, and if I don't, then I'll have lost your trust forever.

Or something like that.