Underage Drinking...

[GeorgeMichael]

You know... for the sake of sounding innocent lets call this the Drinking Age thread...

What do you think about the drinking age in America (it is the highest in the world!)


I'll put in my two cents later :P I just want to see what people think, I just feel weird that I can legally drink in other places of the world but not here... I think it's strange that geographical location factors into the ability to consume alcohol.

What do you all think?

[Shaun]

I think the question is less whether the age limit is wrong, but what we need to do to get underage folks from breaking the damned rules. If that means increasing the punishment, I don't know. I think when it comes down to it there have to be a lot of changes to how we deal with underage drinking.

As for the age range itself: I think given the climate in the U.S. and the ways in which underage folks abuse alcohol here, the 21 age limit is probably necessary. It's unfortunate, but college age kids do a lot of horrible things by drinking and violating authority. They include:
--Drinking and driving
--Rape
--Disorderly conduct
--Violence
--Rape again (the first one would be for the drunken part, the second would be for the introduction of drinking and GHB on young girls who need that extra push to be susceptible to male demands)
--Destruction of property
--Theft/GTA/Crime which is more resultant of the drunkenness than on any sort of personal intent.

I'm sure there are loads of other things that happen that I'm not aware of. I don't go to these parties where it is common on purpose (not my kind of environment).
The way I see it, until kids in this country show they are mature enough as a body of people to handle drinking, the age range isn't going to be lowered. A hell of a lot of students drink and have huge drunken parties, especially in areas deemed "party schools", where little is actually done to stop said parties.

[GeorgeMichael]

... ... ...

But if the drinking age wasn't so high I don't think many people (especially college kids, keep in mind though that when I go that far out in age I'm just speculating) would break the law so fiercely and binge drink, if the drinking age was lowered to like eighteen then I doubt that many people would get such a rush from drinking so much at parties when they're actually following the law, I think most of the enormous drinking problems come from people protesting the high age limit... Then again my argument can be considered somewhat biased...

[Shaun]

They binge drink just as much in England, where the drinking age is 18. Except it's legal there.

[GeorgeMichael]

hmm... I'm at an impass here... I could say that it's a different place in the world but that would make me sound like a hypocrite after saying that I don't think Geographical Location (blah blah blah)... So ... You bring a good point Darth Shaun...


Oh yes, you are now a part of the dark side...




and no, they don't have cookies...



"The cookies are lies
The cookies are lies
The cookies are lies
The cookies are lies"

[Zombified]

I agree with Shaun on this.

And George, if he was on the Dark Side, he would be the Emperor!
Not Darth Shaun!

[GeorgeMichael]

I understand... I'm being proved wrong everywhere today :P

Zombie now you're on the dark side too!!!

[Tsuki]

Ooh, ooh I wanna be on the dark side!
They do have cookies, they're just burnt.

:D My friend and I made that up.

Teens are stupid. Kids talk about parties up here all the time.
There's sex, drinking, and drugs.
What do the police do about it? Nothing.
I've never drank in my life. Never even had a taste.
Actually, never cared to.

Even if the limit stays the same, kids are going to continue to drink.
Laws are broken no matter what and some of them are...
ugh.

[Shaun]

Well, in all honesty I think what we need in the U.S. is a law that works like this:
Under parental supervision, drinking would be allowed UNLESS illegal activities occur or if the party becomes too rowdy. If it's just a happy little time hanging out in the backyard BBQing and drinking a Coors, I don't see a problem with it. If it's binge drinking and wild drunken sex, I have huge problems with it and I think such people should be heavily fined and punished for such action.

Don't get me wrong, I think the underage drinking law is somewhat retarded as it stands right now. I know a few people who are great about drinking. They get alcohol, they stay at home, they drink, they watch TV and eat chips, and then go to sleep. There's no binge drinking, no wild crazy sex parties or anything like that. I'm generally the sober one of the group because I don't like drinking all that much anyway. As long as people act like that when they drink and are underage, I see no problems whatsoever. Generally those aren't the folks that get caught. The folks that get caught are the loud ones who do horrible things like rape young girls who are too drunk to know what is going on, etc. A yes from a drunk person is NOT CONSENT. In fact, it's the same as a NO. And men who think otherwise need to be hit in the head with a frying pan. It's rape and it's wrong and if you get locked up for it, that's your own damn fault.
And don't get my started about on-campus University student disciplinary boards...bastards.

[Guessed]

If the dark side made chocolate cookies, they wouldn't have to burn them! I'm a genius!

As for the argument at hand, this is the kind of thing based on little social nuances that change from country to country. America on the whole is pretty immature, stupid, and reckless. There's less gun control in Canada and a low crime rate, but I doubt we'd get a low crime rate if we were to relax gun laws - or alcohol laws, drug laws, what have you. Tons of kids at my school break them, and they're just going to keep on doing it. Some say this is a reason to get rid of the laws - I say it's a reason NOT to get rid of them. Why bother?

Change isn't going to come from any new laws. Change comes from big changes in the way society is run, so underage drinking might as well remain illegalized.

And personally, I think it's yucky. D: Wine tastes like cleaning fluids! And I would know! Turns out blue Clorox really isn't blueberry flavoured.

Edit: If it's binge drinking and wild drunken sex, I have huge problems with it and I think such people should be heavily fined and punished for such action.
What about adults who do that? Doesn't seem fair to stick kids with big fines when adults are being just as idiotic. I agree with you wholeheartedly about rape, but there aren't many more preventative measures we can take with that - it's up to the parents to be strict.

On a totally unrelated note, I'm loving this ad for another writing website:
A real writer? Not just a hack. Join the writers community today
Every single sentence has errors; god bless those people.

[Tsuki]

The parents at that house supply the liquor.
Wild sex parties are there all the time. Nothing is ever said about it.

At least nothing from the authorities. The kids at the high school know all about it.

Especially the band kids. :P That's how I know so much.
The guy that belongs to that house is in band.

[Shaun]

The Canada argument about the crime rate is irrelevant in comparison to the U.S. There is a huge different in population and population density, all of which contribute to crime. Not to mention the social conditions that created both countries are drastically different.

[Guessed]

That's my point - the U.S. is very different from Canada. I'm refuting the arguments of people who believe Canada serves as a wonderful Control Group Country.

(Yes, Bio finals were today.)

[Shaun]

Oh, well fine then!

[Crocolyle]

Since the laws are so poorly enforced anyway, I don't think drinking age really matters that much. While it is in my personal opinion that it should be brought down to 18, the federal government will abuse its power and cut funds for the interstate of any state that changes the drinking age from 21.

I think 21 is largely an arbitrary age, since the government in most other regards considers adulthood to be age 18--at 18 you're allowed to vote, serve in the military, and buy pornography. Also by this time, since high school ends, many begin careers or start families, even though because of the shift from capitalism to consumerism and the shift to dual-income households, many people of both sexes are going to college and therefore starting families later.

As someone who likes to eat good Italian food, it's difficult for me to obtain the white wine necessary to cook Shrimp Scampi--a quick and relatively easy to make meal, if a little pricey for my budget. I can either get one of my friends to get it illegally, so I can risk getting in trouble for something that is illegal for me to possess, even though I don't plan to use illegally. What am I expected to use? Chicken broth?

Binge drinking in college is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, but lowering the age doesn't really do anything, because alcohol is easy to get if you have fake IDs or older friends. I have friends who binge drink and most of them started doing that in high school or when they were underage. I don't drink--or at least not much or often--but I don't think the drinking age of 21 really solves the problem. All it does is prevent me from buying white wine to cook with...

[Starry]

I think the main problem here is: forget what the drinking age is, how are they going to enforce it anyway? Police have so many other issues to deal with, underage drinking just gets shunted to the back of their minds unless it results in rape/murder/car accidents, etc. I feel like I should be offering a constructive solution for this problem, but I can't think of anything. Thoughts anyone?

Alright, that being said, being able to die for your country but not being able to drink legally is utterly ridiculous. One of the benefits of being in an internationally-renowned (xP) magnet program means that a large proportion of my friends aren't Americans and/or spend summers in a different country, and their perspectives are really interesting. One of the solutions I like is having the drinking age lower than the driving age, so that by the time a teen gets behind the wheel, drinking isn't that big of a deal. (I think they do this in Spain.)

Also, what do you guys think: do teens drink illegally to rebel against the drinking age or just because they don't care?

(And for the record, alcohol smells funny. xP)

[Shaun]

Enforcing laws means doing the following: when people are caught drinking, which is generally when that drinking is causing problems, punish the living hell out of them. You want to go on summer vacation? Tough, you now have a required 40 hours of community service every week for the next six months. You want to visit your best friend in Utah? Tough, you no longer have flight privileges and you can't leave the state. You also can't drink until you are 25, you can't have a driver's license, and if you're caught you go to jail and you WORK while you are in jail to earn your keep.
It sounds harsh, but if your illegal drinking led you to go drive while drunk you're clearly not mature enough to have the same rights as other people. Drunk driving is dangerous for a bloody reason: it takes lives. Those punishments above are nothing compared to the loss of a life from the actions of a stupid person.
If our law were to reflect that those that abuse alcohol can't get away with it and those that stay at home and don't cause problems aren't a threat, then maybe we'd seen some curbing in the ways people consume alcohol. We don't punish people enough when they are stupid.

[GeorgeMichael]

Enforcing laws means doing the following: when people are caught drinking, which is generally when that drinking is causing problems, punish the living hell out of them. You want to go on summer vacation? Tough, you now have a required 40 hours of community service every week for the next six months. You want to visit your best friend in Utah? Tough, you no longer have flight privileges and you can't leave the state. You also can't drink until you are 25, you can't have a driver's license, and if you're caught you go to jail and you WORK while you are in jail to earn your keep.
It sounds harsh, but if your illegal drinking led you to go drive while drunk you're clearly not mature enough to have the same rights as other people. Drunk driving is dangerous for a bloody reason: it takes lives. Those punishments above are nothing compared to the loss of a life from the actions of a stupid person.
If our law were to reflect that those that abuse alcohol can't get away with it and those that stay at home and don't cause problems aren't a threat, then maybe we'd seen some curbing in the ways people consume alcohol. We don't punish people enough when they are stupid.

I completely agree... but on irresponsible drinking such as binge, driving afterwards, etc of all the things you said, but again not for people at home. My friend (I feel really bad for him by the way because this sucks) He's... ... crap, what kind of a friend am I? Well he's sixteen or seventeen... pretty sure it's 17, anyways his dad was giving him a beer and a cop knocked on the door because there was a noise complaint (Stupid neighbors) The police checked the noise and wanted to go yell at the neighbors ( :P ) but then they saw Eli (my friend) drinking and when they found out how old he was they fined his dad 250!!!


I thought it was stupid at first until he went to court with it and didn't have to pay since it's legal with consent from a parent... :) What a happy ending isn't it folks? and by the way, after that I went to their house and for putting them through all of that Eli's dad literally went out to Best Buy and bought a new Surround Sound system and played Rap music on max for the neighbors :) I hated the music, but I figured the reason justified it :)


/ Seemingly pointless story.



But yeah I agree Shaun, there needs to be more enforcement on those reckless drinkers... I mean they ruin it for everyone else!!!


P.S.

I love Red Wine with a dinner Guessed, it doesn't taste like cleaning products :P


and I thought Alcohol smelled God Awful too... just a year ago... I really have no idea what changed... I think they put something different anymore because know when my dad and uncle are drinking I don't mind the smell at all... Weird... I think they put some new crap in it to take away the smell :) One point for beer companies... now they're like in the negative hundreds



EDIT:

Ok I looked it up... apparently your taste buds change over time... It says that there is a seven year rumor (Which I knew about but never believe) that your taste buds change every seven years but that's a lie ( I was right), but that in fact over time your taste buds do change to aquire to new tastes and stuff... I didn't know that, I thought I would always hate and like the same things... I doubt I'll ever like tomatoes though, but maybe this explains the whole change of beer... I take their one point away...

[Shaun]

Are you Canadian? Cause I don't think we have a parental rule here...

Generally the people who stay at home and are responsible aren't the ones to get caught anyway. You rarely ever hear about a bust of teen drinkers who were sitting at home drinking rum and playing scrabble. It's always a big frat party of some sort, with loud music, wild screaming and yelling, etc.

[Ichigo]

Well....I live in a rather small town where everyone started drinking at age....twelve. They party, some have sex and do drugs.

It's just normal for me... Teens everywhere are always going to drink. No matter the drinking age or enforcement.

[GeorgeMichael]

Canadian? No, and I didn't think there was a law like that either but apparently there is, The Drinking Age (at least here in TX but then again what isn't legal here :P ) is 21 with exceptions, in the books TX (and several others) have an * next to their names to indicate this exception... The parental consent at home (while supervised I believe) is one of them.

[sXe_Jinxeh]

So, I am from Small Town Alberta, and I live in a town where teenage drinking is rampant. I worked at a local fast food place and I can't count the amount of times people came to work hungover, and mostly the teenagers or recent grads. I constantly hear people complaining about how hungover they are during class.

I don't have this problem, it's all part of the XXX thing, but I just don't get it. What is so fun about getting totally shitfaced to the point where you pass out in your own vomit and can't remember your own name? It's not like that stuff tastes good, even the somewhat yummy stuff has that bitter booze taste to it.

But the drinking age here is 18, and then in Alberta here everything else is pretty skewed. I think the age of consent is like 16 or something and all that random stuff, and I think the driving age is going to be bumped up two years.

It's been proven though in countries with really low drinking ages and high driving ages, incidences of Drinking and Driving are a lot lower. It creates an interesting contrast.

So, my opinion is: don't drink. It's yucky, and you wind up smelling like crap and acting like a retard.

[Shaun]

It's been proven? Show me a study. I've never seen that before...

[sXe_Jinxeh]

I remembered hearing it on the radio that in countries like Sweden and Finland where the drinking age is relatively low (14, 15) but the driving age is higher (18, 20) the incidences of teen drinking and driving are much lower.

[GeorgeMichael]

oh... never give statistics, news, or even Fine Print to Shaun as proof... I don't think he'd believe anything unless... well, unless it agreed with him, then it could be from Wikipedia for all he cared :P

Source:
Previous debating experience :D :D :D

[Shaun]

George, the stuff you were citing intentionally left out valuable information in the statistics. If you take a Stats class you'll start to notice how easy it is to skew statistics to say just about anything you want. Since I've taken Stats, I am automatically skeptical of all statistics and I've found numerous cases where people have misused them or misrepresented them on purpose to make a point, just as the stats you were citing did. If you just read the statistics, George, you would have seen all the information they left out of the equation.

And I would still like to see these stats on drinking and driving.

[sXe_Jinxeh]

74% of statistics are made up to make people sound smarter.

[Shaun]

Like that one? :P

[GeorgeMichael]

yes... like that one :)

[GeorgeMichael]

That is so tru...


oh... you were joking?









:)

[Shaun]

Yes, he was joking, but it wasn't a very tasteful joke. It tries to paint a not-so-pretty picture of me. I can't help being right all the time :P.

[Crocolyle]

I'm sorry that you weren't amused :sad:

I was hoping you'd write:

When arguing with Croc, never:
--stop pretending that he didn't argue the exact opposite of what he's saying in this one
--Mention the Declaration of Independence
--Point out he uses biases sources (he will just say his source is right until proven wrong)
--Point out the he's trolling
--Point out that he makes frequent ad hominem attacks, in lieu of an actual point

"If you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at?"
--Bill Clinton

[Shaun]

Or maybe instead of ripping on one another, even in jest, we could just pass around hugs and flowers and be hippies. We're both college students after all.

[Crocolyle]

I pride myself on my immaturity.

I have a friend who is a hippie. She's spending the summer doing missionary work in Brazil.

[Chie'N'Kadath]

Well, I may have a slightly tilted and hypocritical view on the subject as someone who is still underage and has an occasional drink sometimes. Chie is as well, at least in America. Back in her home she would be of legal age. Honestly though, it's hard for me to put up a good argument on whether or not we should change the drinking age. I think it's fine where it's at, though I often say that if you allowed to smoke at 18 (blech) you should be able to drink at 18, but at the same time since I want to raise the age for smoking (BLECH!) I really can't argue that we should lower the drinking age because of that.

The smoking (BLECH!!) issue is a whole different argument though.


As for the age range itself: I think given the climate in the U.S. and the ways in which underage folks abuse alcohol here, the 21 age limit is probably necessary. It's unfortunate, but college age kids do a lot of horrible things by drinking and violating authority. They include:
--Drinking and driving
--Rape
--Disorderly conduct
--Violence
--Rape again (the first one would be for the drunken part, the second would be for the introduction of drinking and GHB on young girls who need that extra push to be susceptible to male demands)
--Destruction of property
--Theft/GTA/Crime which is more resultant of the drunkenness than on any sort of personal intent.

People do that even out of their college years. Plus you have to understand that lots of 21 year olds probably still go to college, so you can't blame it all on college 'students.' These crimes, sadly, will happen throughout all ages. It can be hard to fully use alcohol responsibly when your piss drunk. That's why I avoid ever getting drunk, and want it to stay that way. I just like the occasional glass of schnapps. Most of those crimes are likely to happen anyways, except drinking and driving, even without the influence of alcohol. But once again I guess that's a different argument. I'm not saying that I support said crimes or the abuse of alcohol, but what I am saying is that these crimes are likely to be committed under the influence by anyone.

[lango]

Drinking age is kinda pointless.
I dont drink at all pretty much, so maybe Im a bit biased here, but hey, if people are going to drink illegally, therefore feeling "cool" for it and ending up doing a lot of bad stuff due to their sudden rush of "bad-guyiety" (?), maybe by making it legal for say... 16? Would make teenagers less likely to over drink just because its cool.

But like someone said, drinking problems come in every age, the worst in my opinion being old guys drinking away their pays while their families have naught to eat :P But hey, drinking can only enhance these problems, people with weak minds will find another way to disrupt peace, even if alcohol stopped existing.

sorry if that rant made no sense, I hardly ever stick to a single point when Im arguing, making it very hard to understand me, since I tend to have mixed feelings on some subjects

[Shaun]

Lowering the age really won't do anything. If you look at people, it doesn't matter what age they are...some people simply get piss drunk and others don't. And the piss drunk people are those that either fall down and don't get up until the next day or drive and kill people (or rape people, for that matter).

I actually have no problem with underage drinkers, as long as they are responsible. I just have a problem with binge drinking for underage folks. If you just get together with a few friends, play video games and have a few shots, I don't see the harm. But if you go to crazy frat parties and get so drunk that you forget that you were even born, then there's a big problem. Frat parties have a tendency to be a problem in a lot of ways. But people being responsible is fine with me. Irresponsibility is not.

[GeorgeMichael]

I really think most people underage drink BECAUSE it is illegal, I agree with lango. If it were lowered (To 16 though???) then it wouldn't be as cool to drink so much, it's the rush that comes with doing something illegal and lowering it to eighteen could help out a lot.

[Chie'N'Kadath]

I really think most people underage drink BECAUSE it is illegal, I agree with lango. If it were lowered (To 16 though???) then it wouldn't be as cool to drink so much, it's the rush that comes with doing something illegal and lowering it to eighteen could help out a lot.

I'll agree and I will disagree. A lot of kids at my school who drink underage because it is illegal, and I knew kids outside school who did it for that reason to. However, I have met people like me who have simply done it because they enjoy the taste of a good liqueur once in a while.

[Shaun]

There are a lot more kids who just drink because they like booze than we like to think. I don't know why. My assumption would be that perhaps they are the kids who tend to cause fewer problems because they are more aware of what alcohol does to them. I've known friends who drink because they just like to have a good time, and I've known friends who are on the other side of things.

[Crocolyle]

My friends who drink know that drinking as much as they do is bad for them. In fact, sometimes one of my friends who drinks, when he's hanging out with me and his more sober friends, we joke about it. To be honest, I think a combination of boredom, wanting to have a good time, the need to get your mind off school work and the need for instant gratification that ultimately contribute to the drinking problem.

Eventually, some of my friends after doing this for sometime, decided that they like drinking and are willing to do it alone, even if there's no one around to get drunk with.

This is just my experience...

[Shaun]

The great thing about drunks is they come in all different flavors...I mean...oh I don't know what I mean. :P.

It's interesting the different reasons that people drink and how they go about it. No wonder we have such a problem with alcoholism here. (in the U.S. I mean)

[Crocolyle]

I was talking to one of my friends from high school, who I don't hang out with much anymore, one day and we were both talking about how difficult and stressful we were taking. He said that because of the stress, he started drinking and partying on the weekends mainly to relax. Like, it makes the schoolwork more bearable if you know that you'll be too drunk to worry about it on the weekend...

But he's a good guy, so I don't think he's going to rape anyone or something.

On a different note, I had to read an article Fraternities and Collegiate Rape Culture written by A. Ayres Boswell and Joan Z. Spade a few months ago that argued drinking age doesn’t really seem to have anything to do with rape (which is the main reason drinking is bad). The article stated:
Both group norms and individual behavior changed as students went from one place to another. Although individual men are the ones who rape, we found that some settings are more likely places for rape than others. Our findings suggest that rape cannot be seen only as an isolated act and blamed on individual behavior and proclivities, whether it be alcohol consumption or attitudes.
Regardless of which individual students are participating at a certain frat party and regardless of whether drinking is taking place, the rape problem seems to have more to due with the actual fraternity and the characteristics of that fraternity not the level of drunkenness among the student.

While alcohol consumption takes place at the parties of low-risk fraternities, it often is the focus at those of “high risk” fraternities. At such parties, men are normally in control and intentionally subjugate women by objectifying them and encouraging hook-ups instead of on-going relationships, seeing such relationships as a threat to the brotherhood of the fraternity. Furthermore at such parties there is less opportunity for conversation often because of less places to sit and louder music, preventing men and women from getting to know each other. The environment of the parties, not drinking itself, encourages rape culture.

Raising the drinking age to 25, when most undergraduates would have graduated could potentially help solve the problem, but that’s not a decision that most people would agree with. Such laws anyway are still difficult to enforce. While discussing attempts of college administrators to crack-down on drinking, the articles states “the same behaviors and norms may transfer to other places such as parties in apartments or private homes where administrators have much less control.”

18 year olds will get drunk regardless of what laws are in place. Luckily the great thing about drunks is they come in all different flavors... despite what their environment of the party does to them. Lucky for them, drinks also come in all different flavors and you can mix them all up to create jungle juice... a beverage enjoyed at certain parties.

[Shaun]

Oh, certainly, but I would argue that the introduction of alcohol into the equation contributes to increasing the chance that a rape will happen. If you have a frat party where everyone is just having a good time, with no alcohol, you're not likely to find a rape, while it is more likely that someone will be raped in a rip-roaring frat drunkfest (a lot of people probably don't even realize they've been raped). Alcohol throws a nice little speed bump into the equation, making sure your inhibitions aren't up to par, or it knocks you out. A lot of the cases of rape that I've read or hear d about haven't been standard rape. They happened when someone was passed out (either just from alcohol or from GHB) or when someone was just too wasted to really make an objective decision on the matter of sex. Yes, it is still rape if someone drunk says "yeah, let's do it" (at least, so long as the person in question didn't want to have sex, but was too drunk to say anything otherwise).
Granted, the environment contributes to the excessive consumption, but there's a big difference between loud music/dancing and loud music/dancing/excessive drinking. A rape could very well happen in the prior one, but it's more likely to happen in the latter (that's not to say it's some grand increase or anything, but you get what I mean).

I feel weird about increasing the drinking age. I think that increasing the age at this point would cause a lot more problems than already exist...but that's my opinion based on the kinds of people that drink now to which such an increase in drinking age would be focused in the first place.

[Crocolyle]

Oh, certainly, but I would argue that the introduction of alcohol into the equation contributes to increasing the chance that a rape will happen. If you have a frat party where everyone is just having a good time, with no alcohol, you're not likely to find a rape, while it is more likely that someone will be raped in a rip-roaring frat drunkfest (a lot of people probably don't even realize they've been raped). Alcohol throws a nice little speed bump into the equation, making sure your inhibitions aren't up to par, or it knocks you out. A lot of the cases of rape that I've read or hear d about haven't been standard rape. They happened when someone was passed out (either just from alcohol or from GHB) or when someone was just too wasted to really make an objective decision on the matter of sex. Yes, it is still rape if someone drunk says "yeah, let's do it" (at least, so long as the person in question didn't want to have sex, but was too drunk to say anything otherwise).
Granted, the environment contributes to the excessive consumption, but there's a big difference between loud music/dancing and loud music/dancing/excessive drinking. A rape could very well happen in the prior one, but it's more likely to happen in the latter (that's not to say it's some grand increase or anything, but you get what I mean).

I said that, but not in those words. I said:
While alcohol consumption takes place at the parties of low-risk fraternities, it often is the focus at those of “high risk” fraternities.
I mean to then say, that drinking being the focus of such parties contributes to the rape problem, which is why I said raising the drinking age to 25 might help. So, while drinking itself is not the problem, the level of drinking, the fact that drinking is the focus of these parties, and the enviroment of these parties is largely the problem.

I actually meant to cut "not the level of drunkenness among the student" because that contradicts what I said directly afterward, but it looks like I forgot. :blush:

I feel weird about increasing the drinking age. I think that increasing the age at this point would cause a lot more problems than already exist...but that's my opinion based on the kinds of people that drink now to which such an increase in drinking age would be focused in the first place.
I'm against raising the drinking age. I'd prefer it to be lowered to 18. I don't think it'd have that drastic of an effect on drinking. (shrugs)

[Shaun]

Oh, that's why I got confused, Croc. I thought you were trying to say something else, but I just read it the opposite way. Oh well :P. Glad we agree on something then :P.

I don't know about lowering the age. Maybe it wouldn't matter, but maybe it would matter. The problem is that we don't know for sure and doing something like that could cause irreparable harm. If it worked out great, then no problem, but you can't really come back from that if it goes bad. You know what I mean? I think that's part of the reason the argument hasn't really been discussed in serious political avenues yet (it probably has been discussed, but not on that really high level yet, or at least I've never heard of it discussed there).

[phobophile]

it is too easy to say that college kids get all sauced and go rape and pillage. im sure a legal drinker has never raped or beaten someone. the war on underage drinking is a weak attempt to have a small amount of control over teenagers. it is a fact that alchoholism has gone down in countries that have lowered drinking ages. when teens turn legal age they go drinking crazy. in countries where you are able to drink at a younger age, it is considered much less of a big deal to drink. lets let people do what they choose and not try to impose our opinions on them. wait, that would just be crazy, grab my linchin' rope, im gonna go get me some underage drinkers!

[Shaun]

Actually, that's not true. Countries that have lower drinking ages also have harsher punishments for drunk driving, which balances it out. Germany, for example, allows 16 year olds to drink, but they also have very strict rules regarding drunk driving, which impose extreme punishments on those that violate the law. Other countries that have no drinking age also aren't industrialized nations, which makes arguing that "Oh, well they've proven that drinking ages are stupid" rather silly in the first place. If you don't have any cars or enforced rules then there's really no way you can address the issue appropriately. Those countries don't take statistics of their drinking problems.

Look it up. If we lower the drinking age, we have to increase the punishments for abusing it, like Germany.

[Alex]

And I think thats what we should do, also, Shaun, most of these 'unindustrialized nations' are in Europe and last I checked we don't think Europe is that far up their own asses. =p...

[Shaun]

Well, if we could get people to be anal enough about things like drunk driving then we could lower the drinking age.

And no, most of those "unindustrialized nations" are in Africa, South America, the Caribbean, Asia, and much of the island cultures out there. And I'm using the term "unindustrialized" very loosely.

Oh, and yes, we do think Europe is that far up their own asses...the French...hellooooo :P

[phobophile]

Actually, that's not true. Countries that have lower drinking ages also have harsher punishments for drunk driving, which balances it out. Germany, for example, allows 16 year olds to drink, but they also have very strict rules regarding drunk driving, which impose extreme punishments on those that violate the law. Other countries that have no drinking age also aren't industrialized nations, which makes arguing that "Oh, well they've proven that drinking ages are stupid" rather silly in the first place. If you don't have any cars or enforced rules then there's really no way you can address the issue appropriately. Those countries don't take statistics of their drinking problems.

Look it up. If we lower the drinking age, we have to increase the punishments for abusing it, like Germany.

it is someones choice to drink and drive though. so it really doesnt balance out when drinking is done responsibly. and yes, it is true. the netherlands is industrialized and i could name others who are perfect examples of how lowered age would decrease dependency. ive done the research and i know the facts. and please, dont mis-quote me, its rude. and yes, those countries do have research departments. dont spread false knowledge.

[Shaun]

I didn't misquote you, seeing how I didn't quote you at all. And I wasn't spreading false knowledge, you are.

Drinking and driving is a choice, but it's a choice that can lead to the death of innocent people. Hence why strict punishments must follow to cull drunk driving.

The Netherlands, by the way, has restricted no-age drinking limits, which means you're the one spreading false knowledge. They have no drinking age in private and in the presense of a parent or guardian, but minors are not allowed to buy alcohol. So, while that might make you think it prevents dependency, it only does so because a parent or guardian is involved, which introduces an external influence. It doesn't disprove the well-known reality that unsupervised drinking has great potential to turn into abuse. The Netherlands also has different rules for alcohol blood content levels for different ages.

[ElephntFalingOffClif]

I agree with the fact that drinking and driving is your own choice to make only for the fact that everything in life is your choice, whether it be legal or not, that's beside the point. If I decided to go kill someone right now it would be completely illegal and hurt a ton of people emotionaly but it would still be my choice to make. No one could stop me if I tried hard enough. It's not like they can lock all the people up in the world and moniter them to make sure they don't ever make a bad decision in life. That's what laws are for, they just hope that most of us will follow them and the rest of they just lock up in a cell for all eternity. I think they should lower the drinking age just a few years because I'v heard of people that want it lowered and some that want it to stay the same, so if they lower it just a little then there will be some people that still want it lowered more, some that will be happy with it at the new age and some that will want it raised back to 21. Then they'll all have somthing to bitch about.

[-Wallflower-]

Well... I'm in England. Right now, the drinking age is 18 and they keep talking about raising it to 21 - I'm totally against that, and I don't even drink =|
It's kinda taking away freedoms really, but the fact remains that if underage people are gonna drink, they're gonna drink whether it's legal or not - the fact that it's illegal probably just adds to their kicks and if they get caught, all that happens is that they get driven home. That's about it.
I don't know about the drink driving punishments over here, though.

[Phantom]

I think that it is smart in America because most teenagers are irresponcable...
On the other hand maybe if we were exposed we wouldn't want to drink underaged.
:O

[samurai5]

I think the drinking age should remain at 21 because when you are 18, your brain is still developing some decision-making skills... It could damage your brain more than it would at 21. Personally, I know plenty of people who have been drunk before and all of them are stupid anyways, so if you were smart, YOU WOULDN'T DRINK!!!

[Melo]

I think a lot of the time it's more about "I'm doing it because I can" more than anything, and it's a shame, really. It's about proving to somebody else (the authorities, parents, friends etc.) that you CAN. They (underage drinkers) don't understand, that by doing the irresponsible thing, they only limit themselves. A violation of rights?! You forfeit those rights when you abuse them. Some people just can't take a hint, and truthfully, I don't think raising the age limit is going to do anything. There will always be some bonehead who thinks the laws don't apply to him because he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. The police? Let them come! In the end, you can't argue with an idiot.

[Shaun]

You know, it's not stupid to drink. It's just stupid to drink like a moron. I have a drink once in a while. Nothing wrong with that. I think it's the binge drinking that's a problem, not necessarily the moderate drinking.

[Melo]

exactly, thats what I meant. I have no problem with you if you do your thing RESPONSIBLY and LEGALLY.