Gods: Writing Them and What About That Immortality Thing?

[Shaun]

Okay, so let's open the discussion about gods/God. This is NOT a discussion of current religion, but a discussion of MADE UP gods or a MADE UP God. Just want to be clear on that, okay? I don't want this to become a big religious argument or anything :P.

So, do you have gods in your fantasy world? What are they like? Why do you have gods? Are they REAL gods, as in gods that are visible to the people that believe in them, or are they gods that people believe in, but remain invisible except for "mysterious" things that might be perceived as the act of a god?

How do you feel about immortality for gods? Do they HAVE to be immortal, or can they be mortal, killable beings? Do gods have to be almighty, unfallible, and undefeatable in fantasy, or can mortals, by luck or otherwise, defeat them?

So, let's talk about it!

[Rafael Domination]

I have a lot of Cosmic Entities (much like the Cosmic Beings from Marvel) and they're quite fun to make. It's a little hard trying to imagine how an omnipotent being thinks so I sometimes put little twists in the plot that limit certain parts of them to make things easier for me.

Also, I have this Pantheon Concept where all the Ancient Gods (everyone from Zeus to Brahama) were actually Cosmic Beings who wanted to establish a dominion over the humans, etc, etc and the reason why their presence isn't felt today is because...well...that's a spoiler.

I also have a few godlike beings. A few people in the RPG section have already my Aaron Demios. Bioreality Manipulator. Long story. Those characters are so much fun to have because of the fight scenes that result with equally powerful beings. I swear, Final Fantasy's got nothing on my fight scenes. :crazy:

Edit: but yeah...anyone heard of the Omnipotence Paradox? It goes like this: if God is all-powerful can he make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? If he does make a rock that he cannot lift, he's not all-powerful. If he cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it, he's still not all powerful.

*personally, I believe that a being like God is so powerful he can BYPASS that paradox and perform both deeds at once and perform them in ways that won't be subjected to any objections the Omnipotence Paradox has to offer. :P*

[Starry]

I don't really have a preference about how powerful/immortal a god is, as long as it's written well. I've seen omnipotent beings that I've liked (the first example that comes to mind is some of the later Valdemar books by Mercedes Lackey) and I've seen semi-powerful flawed mortal gods that are just as good. A hierarchy of gods, where some are more powerful and immortal than others, is a bit harder to do well. I've seen some of those done well and some awful. It just depends.

In terms of reality-based religion vs. faith-based religion, I tend to like the real-life divine intervention/guidance type better, both when reading and when writing. But actually, right now I'm doing a faith-based religion. I'm trying to reinvent the old magical establishment vs. church cliche, which, while not being nearly as fun to write as true interfering-type gods, does give me the chance to rant on the evils of organized religion (in particular, my heavily Catholicism-inspired church). :]

I do think that fantasy stories do need to have some sort of gods or religion though, because creating a religion to help explain the unexplainable is a natural phase of a developing civilization.

[Crocolyle]

There are several things that I like to do in regard to fantasy religion in my writing.

Recycled Pantheon Approach: Sometimes I pull Gods from an existing pantheon and incorporate them into a story--but I try not to do so by name. Since I do not actually practice, say the Norse Pantheon, I will refer to Odin as the One-Eyed God, in case if I get a trivial detail wrong. I also feel that while doing this gives my story a certain flavor, it stills stays my own, despite the obvious references to a pre-existing pagan thought.

The Lovecraftian/Howardian Approach: Though I don't write this way very often, except for a couple short stories that I never was really able to get off the ground, I enjoy stories with a Lovecraftian/Howardian approach to religion. While both writers had their flaws, particularly in terms of dialogue and characterization, they had an interesting perspective on the use of religion and supernatural occurrences in their stories. These two writers, who actually kept up a correspondence, often explained religion and the works of gods with the presence of aliens from outer space or possibly another dimension.

I have always found this idea fascinating: I love how the presence of a mysterious figure heralds doom, I love the weird cults and strange rituals, I love how we seem to be mere playthings to powers that, while mortal, are so much greater than ourselves. Both writers, though Lovecraft in particular, were able to capture this ultimate feeling of foreboding that I would like to one day emulate in my own writing. It is astounding how subtlety these strange beings affected the characters in their stories, but yet the characters knew that these beings were not to be trifled with. It was in their restraint that one saw their true power. Stephen King later makes use of this in his Dark Tower Series (which I have yet to read), and also It, my favorite novel of his. Though reportedly the events of The Mothman Prophecies (I have my doubts) were true, John Keel also does this in that novel, and that is the scariest book I have ever read.
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What I'm currently doing in an on-going project is focusing on the religion, but not on the gods themselves. I'm following a traditional dualistic model of a Sun God versus a God of Darkness--the people worship the Sun God, and the God of Shadows/Darkness plays the role of the devil, albeit strengthened (since the Devil is not a God in Christianity). This could also be compared to Zoroastrian thought.

While myths are mentioned, neither hod plays an active, or at least clear, role in the events of the story. The focus instead is placed on the cult of the Sun God, how the cult affects the political climate, and what the characters due to try to alter and break down the cult--seeing it as corrupt or misguided.

This is (to an extent) amalgamation of the two approaches I suggested, with more of a political/mortals having freewill flair...
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And that's just what I'm doing... (nervously laughs)

[Shaun]

Cthulu...I don't know how they expect to portray Lovecraft on screen but there is a movie being made form one of his tales for 2009 (or 2010?). Yeah, we'll see how it works out :P.

Right now I haven't given a lot of thought to the gods of my fantasy world. I only have one that is developed enough to have gods (the one for WISB). Mostly because it's young adult a lot of the more complex issues of religion aren't mentioned much.

So what I have thus far:

The Great Fathers
Essentially gods of the world. They are the creators of the world, the universe, and everything else and the bringers of magic. Without them there would only be man...and man would be magicless.
They live in a place called The Hall (or The Hall of the Great Fathers), which is sort of this giant pillared hallway where you go when you die. Everyone goes there and the Great Fathers judge you and determine if you should go into the heavens and be dispersed (i.e. you cease to exist, which is what you want because you become a part of the universe), or you can be banished to Loe, which is basically hell, except different. It's not a place where you're necessarily tortured. Rather it's like a whole different world that just so happens to be populated by wicked spirits and creatures that were banished there (such as the Lyphon...which is a creature so evil that any of its bodily fluids can actually disrupt the fabric of the real world, and as a result they are held in Loe--in theory they aren't supposed to be able to get out...nothing is supposed to get out from there, but it happens when someone smart enough and brave enough learns what to do...which is what happens in the first book). I also have reincarnation in my world. Sometimes people aren't good enough to be dispersed and not bad enough to go to Loe, so they go back to the world, reborn.

That's basically what I have. Oh, you remember your reincarnation as you grow up...as soon as you can sort of think well enough it all comes to you and you know where you were before...unlike the reincarnation we know of.

[Rafael Domination]

The things is, I have to be careful on which side I place my Cosmic Entities. If I put too much of them on the side of the good guys, the suspense and risk of defeat disappears. If I make the bad guys too powerful, the only way I let the good guys win is by using a deus ex machina...which isn't good.

*In fact, I've even considered actually INTERFERING with the omniverse I've cooked up. It's hilarious: my characters refer to me as the Author a being beyond omnipotence, which, in the realm of imagination, is correct to a certain degree. I've scrapped the idea, but I dunno...if I find an opportunity to bring it back in, I actually might!!! :D*

But yeah, for the most part, my 'gods' are neutral beings who simply let 'events' unfold. This saves me a crapload of trouble trying to find a place for *name is a spoiler* to side with. The guy scours the Realm of Thought from all beings, living, dead or imaginary for an imagination 'worthy enough' to fight him. He then brings that being into existence at full power and always wins. By that I mean, he can take anything anyone can ever imagine and defeat whatever that is, no matter how powerful. I've TRIED scrapping him for being too strong a character, plus it's hard to give something like him a personality (I imagine him as bored and nonchalant), but I dunno...I guess I just adored the idea of him being Power Incarnate, so I kept him. He's now just a Neutral Being, neither good or evil, but he still plays a role in maintaining the universe, being the Incarnation of Power/Special Abilities, often granting requests every now and then to characters who want to gain more powers (they have to challenge him and if he deems them worthy, they gain new powers) or take away the powers of someone else, or maybe even themselves. They can trade powers for other powers, or etc. Yeah, it pays to have a being like him. ^^

Anyways...anyone have any thoughts on the Omnipotence Paradox?

[Crocolyle]

The Author playing an active, omnipotent role in a story has oddly enough been done before, mostly in comedy films for comedic effect. It's in the same realm as the cartoonist dying of a heart-attack, characters talking back to the narrator, and various other fourth-wall breaking things. Think of the instances on Loony Toons where Bugs Bunny runs away from an eraser. Stuff like that.

EDIT: Oh, and Stephen King is a character in the Dark Tower series. I haven't read it, but apparently his characters show up in Maine and he talks to them.

[Imelda]

Mostly because it's young adult a lot of the more complex issues of religion aren't mentioned much.


:glare:

You are so prejudiced against YA fantasy.

Anymahoo, I currently don't have religion in the amazingly depressing world of Nikara. They're all far too bleak/egotistical to be thinking of that. Hooooowever I'll be putting some in when she leaves Amandil. I have a desert culture that I doubt she'll come into contact with, but I'm sure they have religion. Then there are some weird wandering nomad dudes who will probably be a bit Native American on their religiousness. And then there's dun-dun-dun the crazy mountain folk who are VERY religious, and I just realised I lied when I said there currently wasn't one, because there is and I've already written that bit. :rolleyes: I have no clue what the religion is called, but it's all very extreme because I do like the whole juxtaposition of crazy religious folk who are fairly "evil" despite their morals, and non-religious folk who are "evil" because they have no morals. So all the nice people either aren't religious but have morals, or are religious but not insane. :p

[Shaun]

I'm not prejudiced against YA, I simply recognize that it is NOT always on the same level as more complex works of fantasy because it can't be.

[Imelda]

I'm not prejudiced against YA, I simply recognize that it is NOT always on the same level as more complex works of fantasy because it can't be.

:rolleyes: Prejudiiiiiiiceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[Shaun]

You're ill and cranky. Your opinion is irrelevant at the current moment :P

[Crocolyle]

A lot of young adult fiction, even if it doesn't directly raise questions about religion, etc., does display complexity and often asks the reader to assess the morality of the choices the characters make, and the values of the society the characters live in. A few examples that come to mind are Harry Potter where the characters must chose between "what is right and what is easy," as Dumbledore, almost speaking for Rowling, put it, the Giver, a popular dystopian novel where the reader is asked to question the values of a communal, equalized, "gray" governmental system. Also, Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials series, also young adult fiction, directly confronts and is critical of real world religion.

Yes, some Young Adult Fiction is merely escapist literature that does not offer any criticism of religion, or even values and ethics, where there is a clear line between good and evil, and where nothing even slightly controversial is examined. But this is even true of much of "adult literature." Not all YAF follows the Paolini model of a linear plot structure peppered with direct, blatant attempts of moral/religious brainwashing, rather than the subtle, complex brainwashing techniques that we so love to see in fiction...

[Shaun]

Yup. I was mostly pointing out that the ways in which YA fantasy deals with complex issues tend to be less complex than adult fiction dealing with the same issues (throwing out the vast majority of popcorn fiction...i.e. what you find in your Walmart with the exception of a few novels).

[Crocolyle]

I did not say less complex. I just said it's not always as directly address religion, per se--instead focusing on values, ethics, and morality (components of religion without God). The examples I cited are as complex as most adult fantasy. Even more so than some.

[Shaun]

I know that's not what you were saying. That's what I was saying :P

[Crocolyle]

Your misuse of "Yup" threw me off.

[Shaun]

Sorry! Didn't mean to.

[Imelda]

You're ill and cranky. Your opinion is irrelevant at the current moment :P


You're always saying that. :( It makes me sad.

[Andy]

Whenever I read a conversation between you two, I almost always regret it. :(

[Imelda]

Well then don't read them. :p Or yell at us till we stop spilling personal stuff onto the forum.

And I'm serious about deleting things, Shauny Mc Shaun Shaun.

[Guessed]

Shauny Mc Shaun Shaun

Well, I regret reading that, anyway.

[Imelda]

Oh I call lots of people things like that. :p Nighty Mc Night Night from TW ... Umm ... Ronnie McRonnie ... Hippity-O. It's not a couple thing, it's a bizarre Imelda's crazy thing.

[Shaun]

Great, now I feel really loved...

[Crocolyle]

... too bad no one feels on topic...

[Shaun]

Well, bring us back to it then, Croc. Let's talk about gods.

Do you think they are necessary in fantasy worlds? Are they boring? What's overdone?

[Imelda]

FOR GOD'S SAKE, SHAUN DELETE THE DAMN POSTS! :mad: Do you want me to get incarcerated in my room forever?!

[Shaun]

I did delete them. Sheesh. Back to topic.

[Imelda]

Uh, ok. :p Sorry. But y'know, it's common practise to delete all the 'please delete this' posts ... otherwise it's obvious there's something been hidden.

And I am way too sneaky ...

[Shaun]

Alright, so back on topic. How important are gods and their related kin to fantasy? What are overused ideas? Do you hate the presence of gods as physical beings? What do you think about immortality? Are gods that can be killed interesting, or stupid?

Let's get this discussion rolling.

[Andy]

Alright, so back on topic. How important are gods and their related kin to fantasy? What are overused ideas? Do you hate the presence of gods as physical beings? What do you think about immortality? Are gods that can be killed interesting, or stupid?
I hate the cliche of gods who are present but are not allowed to interfere due to some worthless rule. It's one of those throw-the-book things for me. :) I prefer to have them able to interfere, but only to the extent where they can help one side or the other just a bit, not enough to give one an overwhelming victory.

Sort of like having an immortal being, but not an omnipotent one.

[Shaun]

Have you read Shadowfall by James Clemens, Andy? If not, you should read it. It's a little tough because it is VERY adult (not like pervie adult, but tackles adult issues and doesn't let you get away with ignoring them, which is good for the overall story). But the way he handles his gods is fantastic.

[Crocolyle]

I hate the cliche of gods who are present but are not allowed to interfere due to some worthless rule. It's one of those throw-the-book things for me. :) I prefer to have them able to interfere, but only to the extent where they can help one side or the other just a bit, not enough to give one an overwhelming victory.

Sort of like having an immortal being, but not an omnipotent one.

I agree with you for the most part, but sometimes it's necessary to make the plot work. In Harryhausen's version of "Jason and the Argonauts" Hera is restricted to helping Jason five times because Zeus was like, "Sorry bitch, it's my game, and we play by my rules." (I don't know how accurate this is to the actual myth. I need to reread it.) Like if Hera were helping him all the time it'd probably make the movie dull, because there wouldn't be nearly as many challenges he and his crew would have to face on their own. Though she kind of cheats with Poseidon and Phineas...

Anyway, some times it's necessary. Though the point of that movie is the special effects, not the plot, so the point I'm making is kind of moot. I guess it's sloppily written... but still.

[Shaun]

Well, from my understandings of Greek and Roman Myth, their relationships to themselves (as gods) and to other beings are very complex. I don't know if I would consider them as exclusions for Andy. That, and in your example you talk about Zeus...and Zeus was an d*ck. The guy ate his own kid or something (I think it was his kid, right? The myth where one of the gods sprouts out of his head...or did he eat his wife? I forget. Croc, clarify for me. I know the myth, I just have the details wrong). So, in a lot of ways, the rules are just him being a jackass, at least in some ways (there are probably rules among the gods that are supposed to be followed, but Zeus sort of broke them all the time and generally imposed his own form of rule...like a bully in a schoolyard).

[Crocolyle]

Athena comes out of his head (Specifically his ear I think) fully armed and all of Zeus's siblings were swallowed by Cronus until Zeus killed him off. Apparently all this is about the attempt of males to try to control the birthing process... or something. He never ate Hera.

But you're right, Zeus was a dick. He'd take the form of animals to rape women and little boys. But I'm talking about the a Harryhausen film based on a myth, not any of the myths themselves. Though I've read a lot of Greek myths, I'm not very familiar with the story of Jason and don't know if Hera was restricted to helping him only five times. I know my Norse, better than my Greek...

EDIT: I just looked up the myth--apparently Zeus swallowed Athena's mother Metis after having sex in fears she would conceive a child stronger than him. Unfortunately, swallowing your sexual partner proved not to be an effective contraceptive and Athena, fully armed, was born from his forehead.

[Shaun]

I knew he ate somebody! See? Now that is fascinating :P, and it's all "real" (real in the sense that it's real mythology.

Hercules came from such a union with Zeus didn't he? I'm not sure. The Disney version paints a pretty picture, but if I recall correctly, Hercules led a dark life.

So perhaps the lesson here is that we can learn so much from the mythology already present in the world. I don't know if religion will become significant in the WISB series. It's there, but one thing I'm unsure about is whether I should present some sort of clash of beliefs. My protagonist (James), is a lax Christian (he believes in God, but it's never established that he is a strong believer in organized religion...he's Christian, but not the kind that goes to church a lot). In the fantasy world (Traea is the main continent, but there will be another called Dern, which may produce a clash of beliefs) there is a semi-pantheistic belief system. There are the Great Fathers, who exist in the heavens as those who pass final judgment. It's never clear how many there are and I never state if there are demi-gods or gods who have been exiled into Loe (my hell). I never worked on that in the novel because I didn't want the story to be about religion, but about the journey of a boy to save his friend and the consequences of such actions (i.e. that his presence starts a war which is devastating to the good guys...almost on the level of pure extermination).
However, I think a religious issue might be one to pursue. If his beliefs clash with the beliefs of another, it could develop a more complex relationship between James and his friends (most of which are from Traea), or possibly it could complicate his relationship with the people he will eventually meet in Dern. I don't know...

Is there any reason why you all would hate the introduction of religion as a conflict within a story for younger readers (teenagers and up)?

[Carraka]

I initially wanted religion in EC, as you might be able to see from the first draft of my first section, but I never really planned the religion out, and then I forgot about it, and now I think it's too much work to go back through and add religion, if not impossible.

But I'm still open to all possibilities, and I think in my next novel, I'm definitely going to sit down and figure out a religion. Faith is just too powerful to ignore. And I already do have ideas for it. My god/s would interfere, but not directly, and they would be immortal. However, that's just my current idea. I can see myself setting other novels in different worlds with different gods and different rules.

These are things I'd want to study before venturing off on to the page -- unlike some of this people in this thread, I can only offer so much discussion.

[Paradox]

In one of my story series called EverRae, the main character is a girl goddess who is trying to find her place. She's immortal, but definately not perfect or all powerful. In fact, she is a new goddess and spent her early years in an orphanage believing she was mortal to the point where it appeared to be true. But she discovers her true identity and has to prove herself to the other gods and goddesses before she can have a patronage (be the goddess of something).

Think that sounds okay?

*Paradox*

[Shaun]

So, kind of like the Hercules story?